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Clearly the expressive directions taken by Michelangelo and later Mannerist and Baroque painters and sculptors were similar in intent and echoed certain stylistic elements of the Hellenistic Greek and later Roman works. Michelangelo would have had access to whatever fragments were in the Medici collections as well as the collections of the Vatican. His poetic achievements are probably enough to have assured his place at least in the history of Italian literature. There are few other artists of such stature who have excelled to such a degree in literature and art… William Blake being the only other obvious example although if we stretch things we might add Dante Rossetti and William Morris… although neither is really a top tier poet or artist. Your other Praxiteles works are certainly copies. They have a certain beauty… but lack the extra sensitivity of the original. It… along with the later Roman copies… certainly suggests how beautiful his various female nudes must have been:. Myrons copies are nothing to sneeze at… Nor are Lyssipos. Yet they lack a certain sensitivity and fall short of the Praxiteles Hermes as well as other known original Greek works… such as the Mausolus:. Are these able to be credited to any single sculptor? All of these achievements would seem to fall outside of the domain of the concept of the individual artist. And are another sound argument for artistic collaboration. If anything, the examples of Warhol, Koons, and Hirst head in the opposite direction… turning the artistic creation into something akin to fashion design… with the name being everything and the name brand artist taking all the credit for the the creative input of others. If anything, I am far more intrigued with the collaborative efforts one finds in film, theater, opera, as well as the medieval artists who created the cathedrals and books, etc…. Modernism is probably the greatest paradigm shift in Western Art since the Renaissance. While one may or may not admire the expressionistic distortions and other stylistic elements wrought by Modernism, at the same time it must be acknowledged that Modernism broke the strangle-hold of illusionism or realism and opened up the art of the West to an infinite array of other possibilities. I want to go off on a bit of a tangent here. I have long noticed that my personal artistic tastes, on the face of it, seem rather incongruous: I like Gothic and early Renaissance work, but then I also like the post-impressionists. What could they possibly have in common, one might wonder. But I began to see some parallels, notably in their styles of drawing, which inevitably also influenced their painting styles. Both post-impressionists on the one hand, and medieval and early Renaissance artists on the other, often had no qualms about using visible outlines, and in both styles there is often a flat, purely decorative effect, and perspective either absent, or done in an intuitive, empirical sort of way rather than in a strict mathematical manner. And of course, in Medieval art, especially illumination art, there is often much decorative abstraction in the margin, so perhaps it is actually not too much of a stretch to see the similarities between this:. Apparently very divergent cultural and religious and political outlooks can result in remarkably similar aesthetics. Now when you say above that modernism was the greatest paradigm shift in art since the Renaissance, it occurs to me that in a sense it was not so much a shift to the future, as a shift back to the past, toward the early and pre-Renaissance. Instead of inventing anything profoundly new, in a sense they revisited the distant past, but of course packaged in all manner of startling new forms. Anyway, perhaps nothing new happens in art; instead, we cycle back and forth through styles. However, you can take that only so far before it reaches total chaos, and what do you do then? Well, one possibility is to go back to far distant roots: to modern ears, medieval and Renaissance music now sounds wonderfully exotic and fresh. And indeed, lots of modern composers seem to be partially inspired by it. So perhaps, by the end of the 19th century, artists had to some extent exhausted the possibilities of ever greater technical mastery in realism, and this sort of thing:. Hence the flattening of forms and unabashed use of visible outlines, as well as the apparent and sometimes real lack of purely technical skill by the post-impressionists. Nowadays I no longer think of art appreciation as being concerned with working out who the greatest artist s was or were or are. When I look at the history of art, instead of seeing a ranking from best to worst, I now see a wondrously diverse mosaic. Some parts of it do not interest me much personally. But those parts are the price we pay for having the whole of the mosaic. Perhaps it is in the midst of horse manure that the best flowers bloom. Hence I am now at peace with the world of art. It seems to me liking one style does not in any way require of me to dislike or even denigrate another. If I can like everything from Palestrina to Prokofiev in music, I can perhaps achieve a similar feat in visual art, and lift my hat to everyone from Bouguereau to Picasso. Anyone know whether this is indeed the case? Some of his etchings seem to me very Greek vase-like! There are definitely elements of a turning back to pre-Renaissance or pre-High-Renaissance might we almost say-Pre-Raphaelite? If we look to music the same applies. The modal elements of medieval music began to seep into Western music… as did elements of folk music think especially Bartok or the African-American contributions of jazz. The old… forgotten… ignored… even rejected becomes a source of innovation and inspiration. Indeed… but you might also wish to check out the late works of Gesualdo… the great Renaissance composer who toyed with dissonance and even atonality. So perhaps, by the end of the 19th century, artists had to some extent exhausted the possibilities of ever greater technical mastery in realism…. But perhaps only for the time being. His own heritage of Spanish-Moorish art… the Spanish Romanesque paintings are even more important… arguable more important than the even noted African influence:. The Cycladic works like the Etruscan was just being unearthed… and it had a definite influence… although perhaps even more on Brancusi:. David, perhaps this ought to be a whole new post. Not all Picassos are equal! On the flipside, at the same time.. I have to admit he is ALSO very influential to me. Color-wise I often think of Matisse. Also in his use of varying patterns to lead the eye around a picture. As well as a lot of his compositional ideas.. Usually, I must admit.. If there is one thing that stands out in both modern art and 20th century classical music, it is the unprecedented diversification that has taken place. In just about all previous centuries, whether you did music or visual art, there was for all intents and purposes only one style available. Or at least, that is what it tends to look like from our perspective. I nevertheless greatly prefer Chinese brush painting, including the very abstract stuff, to ab-ex. Not really sure why, but for some reason ab-ex grates on me like very little else. Indeed, but is also partly my point. When the centuries of increasing atonality culminated in Schoenberg, who both invented and basically exhausted the possibilities of complete atonality, composers had to look elsewhere. Hence music greatly diversified, and at least some composers cycled back to the very beginning of western music. So perhaps, by the end of the 19th century, artists had to some extent exhausted the possibilities of ever greater technical mastery in realism… But perhaps only for the time being. Well, we do have those brave rebels of the ARC… I actually very much like their work, but it is a bit of a pity that they have become so obsessed with technique to the exclusion of everything else that I fear most of them now disappear into a bland sea of absolutely perfectly executed still lifes and figure studies. Nothing wrong with that, mind you. You will not hear me argue against simple beauty, and there is something awesome about great virtuosity for its own sake, which is why people enjoy watching gymnasts, for example. But I do wonder what some of them might achieve if they can accept that yes, they do now have the required technique, and can therefore now perhaps start DOING something with it! But I am on their mailing list, and their aesthetic is very different. From their perspective, if we cannot see the perfection of what they are doing, then that simply shows we know nothing about art. Fair enough: their works, and those of their hero Bouguereau, are very beautiful and and a glorious triumph of that particular style and aesthetic. It bothers me though that they seem to reject the very validity of any other aesthetic. They complain about modernists denigrating the French academics, but have no qualms about denigrating modernists or anyone else not fitting into the strict realism mold. As such they seem to me like a bit of a lost opportunity. But not the sort they are promoting, I think. His own heritage of Spanish-Moorish art… the Spanish Romanesque paintings are even more important… arguable more important than the even noted African influence: …. All very beautiful works. I have seen some of them before, and they are quite distinct form the more northern illumination art. I wonder if Gauguin might not also have seen some of that stuff …. Well, my post WAS somewhat experimental…. I was not implying that the post-impressionists were directly influenced by late medieval work, mind you. So any similarities would surely be superficial ones. But I have long been struck by how visible outlines basically disappeared from painting around Botticelli was the last major painter to use them, that I am aware of , only to suddenly and emphatically reappear almost four centuries later. And along with the outlines, also some other elements that have long laid dormant, notably a flattening of form, focus on purely decorative elements and ever less focus on correct perspective. In short: a rejection of illusionism. But I am of course biased by my own personal tastes: I happen to LIKE visible outlines, however often I am told that there are no outlines in nature. Hence I am perhaps more prone to seeing great aesthetic principles here where everyone else sees just chaotic history. Well, we do have those brave rebels of the ARC…. The are realists that have nothing to say about the reality that the rest of us know and live. You can do better than that! Finish the damn painting already! Of course I realize that Picasso is always experimenting… inventing a whole new visual language… and cares little for editing himself… he just moves on to the next painting. While Matisse has some lazy paintings, I personally find as with Picasso these are more than offset by the wealth of brilliant paintings. As someone enamored of color and sensuality of surface, Matisse is unquestionably an artist I turn to more than I do to Picasso… although my personal Modernist idols would probably include Bonnard, Max Beckmann, Paul Klee, and Modigliani before either Picasso or Matisse. Looking at the winners of their salon competition, I am struck by how, despite the fact that I am in awe of them, most of their work is at the same time not really very memorable. Of the latest crop, just about the only ones I can at all remember off the top of my my head is a quite magnificent painting of a dragonfly, and the one of the nude girl half hidden behind semi-transparent plastic. I do not remember any of the others! Still, with that sort of skill some of them might well end up doing something very significant yet. Speaking of sensuous, jewel-like colour, I recently discovered the work of Maurice Prendergast, and I must confess I like his cheery, colourful messes. Looking at the winners of their ARC salon competition, I am struck by how, despite the fact that I am in awe of them, most of their work is at the same time not really very memorable. I agree that these artists have certain skills that may allow them to achieve something of merit… but as you suggest, they mostly lack other skills… such as the ability to create an image that resonates and stays with you. Prendergast is indeed an artist worthy of exploration… although I must admit to a certain prejudice against him. These were hung salon-style: crammed together and hung floor to ceiling… and there were literally thousands of them… so many that the experience was mind-numbing. A hundred or so paintings carefully selected would have offered a much greater viewing experience… where certain images might stick in the mind. Instead it was visual over-load. Nevertheless… I quite like these two paintings:. I do wonder though whether such huge skills cannot sometimes act as a trap. Some artists appear to get so caught up in technical matters that everything else gets forgotten. Different genres do indeed have their own associated skills. I recently investigated Celtic knotwork, as used by the scribes who wrote books like the Book of Kells. Now some of it is actually fairly mechanical, once you know how to go about it. You use a grid, and you can work up things of amazing complexity without having to give it much thought. However, it appears as if the scribes did a lot of their knotwork freehand, without grids or patterns, and that is something else! This might be so, although I have noticed that many artists who try to work in his style do not manage very well: their work tends to look garish and over-bright. So while his technique might be quite simple, he seemed to have had a good eye for choosing the right colours and not overdoing it. Most people who try to do this sort of thing end up overdoing it:. His early drawings range from awkward to downright amateurish, and I am not aware of any of his drawings that were on ARC-style atelier standard I am surprised they allow him a spot in their hallowed hall of great masters, because if he entered their salon competition today he would have been laughed out of the building. But his drawings are wonderfully expressive and memorable, full of almost calligraphic loops and angles, with a sort of blocky solidity about them, that is quite alien to the sort of technique taught in the academies at the time. Thank heavens he learned at least as much from Hiroshige as he did from Mauve…. The same is true for his early paintings: not the kind of thing that would win one accolades at an ARC-approved atelier. I find myself often returning to them, not quite sure what it is that draws me to works like these:. Because he experimented so much, some of his works hover somewhere between utterly ridiculous and truly hideous, but even those works are very memorable; one will remember a thing like this long after you have forgotten most of the slickly professional salon pieces of the time:. Yes, that sounds like a bit too much. My impression is that he was very prolific, but with an output that varied in quality, and one does not necessarily want to see every last one of them in a single session! Incidentally, what size are his works, assuming he keeps to more or less the same size? He seems to have worked mostly in watercolour, but his oils are also nice. That second one you posted has quite a bit more accurate detail than most of his work. No subtle layering and washes and who knows what else: he paints like a child, even leaving white space open around objects. And yet the result is everything but childlike. Watercolour is easy to overwork. But just as easy to end up messy and formless. He manages a nice balance, I think. And again… the mastery of technique and craft is nothing to sneeze at. There are any number of artists who mastered the same skills and to the same level as Michelangelo, Bernini, and Ingres… and produced little that is truly memorable. Working repeatedly with tessellations I can tell you that such patterns, indeed, are largely rooted in a grid although some Celtic and Arabic works are of an amazing level of complexity rooted in a level of mathematical precision beyond me. Even so… just working with the far simpler grid-based tessellations and varieties of linear perspective can be incredibly arduous and frustrating. A mis-measurement of the slightest degree can become amplified over the course of distance into something painfully obvious demanding all be erased and redone. Imitation or an artistic language is always far easier than invention. Yet beyond this, I would second the assertion that painting like Van Gogh not only involves understanding the mechanics of how he painted… it also involves having a good eye and a good touch. I agree that watercolors can be easily overworked and there is something to be said for the light, fresh, spontaneous approach. Indeed… one might argue that such deftness of touch and spontaneity is what lends strength to not only Van Gogh but even a painter such as Rubens and Veronese. There is nothing wrong with the meticulous and labor-intensive, perfectly composed paintings of Vermeer and Ingres… but there is just as much skill involved… if not more… in the more unforgiving spontaneous approach. And yet you scoffed when I said the same thing about Michelangelo and Rembrandt. By the way, since this is a Picasso thread, I was looking at his lousy sculptures and realized that I really did like his pottery. It reminds me of the Greek stuff. Managing your WetCanvas! This topic has replies, 35 voices, and was last updated 14 years ago by Rick G. Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 of total. June 4, at pm They seem but typical of Hellenistic Baroque. Not far removed from the works of Pergamon: the Winged Nike: the Barberini Faun: or the Menelaus with the Body of Patroclus: Clearly the expressive directions taken by Michelangelo and later Mannerist and Baroque painters and sculptors were similar in intent and echoed certain stylistic elements of the Hellenistic Greek and later Roman works. It… along with the later Roman copies… certainly suggests how beautiful his various female nudes must have been: Praxiteles, after all, was credited with popularizing the female nude in Greek art. Yet they lack a certain sensitivity and fall short of the Praxiteles Hermes as well as other known original Greek works… such as the Mausolus: or the beautiful bronzes: ……………. June 8, at am And of course, in Medieval art, especially illumination art, there is often much decorative abstraction in the margin, so perhaps it is actually not too much of a stretch to see the similarities between this: and this: even though more than five centuries, and much tumultuous history separate the two works. So perhaps, by the end of the 19th century, artists had to some extent exhausted the possibilities of ever greater technical mastery in realism, and this sort of thing: began to look as wonderfully fresh and exotic to late 19th century eyes as Michelangelo must have looked to 15th century ones. June 8, at pm June 9, at am It has occurred to me that Picasso might have had another influence, namely Greek vase painting: Anyone know whether this is indeed the case? Yes… he was very aware of this… but even more so of the Etruscan linear work: His own heritage of Spanish-Moorish art… the Spanish Romanesque paintings are even more important… arguable more important than the even noted African influence: A lot of elements of Guernica in this last painting. LGHumphrey Default. Lawrence Humphrey Torrelles, Spain. June 9, at pm Sir Paul Default. I know his work: it sounds startling even to modern ears. Well, my post WAS somewhat experimental… I was not implying that the post-impressionists were directly influenced by late medieval work, mind you. June 11, at pm Perhaps you also enjoy it? June 12, at am Thank heavens he learned at least as much from Hiroshige as he did from Mauve… The same is true for his early paintings: not the kind of thing that would win one accolades at an ARC-approved atelier. I find myself often returning to them, not quite sure what it is that draws me to works like these: Because he experimented so much, some of his works hover somewhere between utterly ridiculous and truly hideous, but even those works are very memorable; one will remember a thing like this long after you have forgotten most of the slickly professional salon pieces of the time: Prendergast is indeed an artist worthy of exploration… although I must admit to a certain prejudice against him. Nevertheless… I quite like these two paintings:… He seems to have worked mostly in watercolour, but his oils are also nice. I like this one: Watercolour is easy to overwork. Shall things of dust the Gods' dark ways despise? Events WC! Site Discussions Wearable Art. Username Password. Forgotten Password Cancel. Register For This Site A password will be e-mailed to you. Username E-mail. Search Search for:. Remember Me Lost your password?
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