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kodiakrain

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I have been wondering about the length of throat in my Sako 85 .270wsm

Why is it so far from the max mag length (2.93 COL) to the Lands (2.99 or 3.00 COAL) for several bullets I am loading for. I have measured several bullets using several methods, It's way out there and I can only get there (-.05 back) on a few of the larger bullets.

Did Sako do this on purpose, as I can't imagine them slacking on the Barrel build.

So ran into this on Gunners Den,

Bullet Seating Depth
Bullet seating depth has a great impact on rifle accuracy. The bullet seating depth for each individual rifle and bullet varies and should be set accorgingly. NOTE: Do not use this procedure for rifles chambered for weatherby cartridges as these have long throats cut into the rifles bore.

Is this something they may have done for a reason with the WSM for example? I have no problems with accuracy setting way back from the lands, usually finding 2.80-2.90 the place I want to be. Seating them out to 2.93 a squeeze into my Magazine or loading a few out to the lands and back up a bit has not showed any increase in accuracy at all?

Comments?

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I also have a Sako 85 (in 300 WSM) and it has a long throat. I don't know if it's just some cartridges or all and I'm not sure why they do it. The Weatherby's are known for a lot of freebore and both my Sendero's (in 25-06 and 300 RUM) have long throats. More freebore will reduce the likelihood of overpressures. Some argue that freebore is detrimental to accuracy and some say it doesn't matter. On seating depth, I personally think that it's up to the personality of the rifle barrel as to where it likes which bullet seated with whatever powder. An interesting thread on this just came up in another forum.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/new-found-knowledge-tested-56067/

My opinion... the best seating depth depends on rifle, bullet, powder etc...

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You might do some digging at the Weatherby site or in their old catalogs for their own explanation and justification for freebore. It was supposed to do two things as I recall- hold down pressures while allowing for extra velocity, giving the bullet a "jump" before encountering the rifling. In my personal experience it compromised accuracy to a degree, and some claim it resulted in a lot more throat erosion as gases could briefly get past the bullets.

I use the term "long throat" to mean something different than freebore, though. In my uses, it means I can seat the bullets out further than factory standard, allowing more powder capacity than standard. The magazine has to be long enough to allow it, but I still seat the bullets very close to the rifling for best accuracy and there is no "jump" a la freebore.

One of the fair-haired ladies of long throating in its day was the 257 Roberts. When Remington made it a factory round, they had short action on the brain and seated it to an OAL of 2.75", shorter than most folks did in the past when loading it as a wildcat on the 7x57 case. The typical long throated Roberts allowed a 3" OAL, and there was quite a bit written about it. When RCBS built my rifle I sent them several dummy cases loaded with the Sierra 117 grain bullet to a 3" OAL, which put the base of the bullet right at the base of the neck rather than further down in the body. They used them as a measure when cutting the throat in my barrel. I had the rifle built on a 700 Remington action I salvaged from a lefty 30-06. It required a very small bit of feed rail adjustment while they were at it.

The Roberts was handicapped in the first place by loading to lower pressures (45,000 PSI like the factory 7x57 as I recall) in honor of some older rifles chambered by the wildcat. Between that and the restricted powder capacity from deep seating to 2.75", it really didn't turn out velocities to its potential. Long throating and upping the pressures to those comparable for other factory loadings results in substantial jumps in velocity. In mine I get very long case life while pretty much duplicating the velocities of the 257 AI. I have never got around to comparing case capacities, but I'm guessing the long throat brings it up very close to the AI. And barrel life has been spectacular. I've shot that rifle for 35 years, the first ten including a whole lot of ground squirrel and rockchuck shooting, and accuracy is still really good. No, it won't break half an inch like it used to, but most loads still break an inch.

Another notable example is the Ruger #1 in 243. The one I had allowed seating the Speer 105 spitzer all the way out till the base of the bullet was at the base of the neck. Funny looking thing, but it vastly increased powder capacity and velocity. I had to carefully label all boxes loaded that way so they wouldn't try to sneak into a standard rifle. Probably not much fear, because it made the round something like 3/8" longer than would fit in standard magazines. Here's the kicker- that #1 wouldn't shoot for beans with standard seating depths, but with the bullet seated out to that length and just shy of the rifling, it was a sincere one-holer.

In your case, I'm betting that long throat explains why you're not getting "book" velocities from your rifle. If it was my rifle, I'd figure out what your max OAL is with that long throat, then pray that the magazine would allow you to seat that long as a standard. I'm betting your "max" load is going to be higher than book as a result, but I'm also betting your groups really shrink.

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BrownBear, I have considered freebore and long throats to be the same thing. Maybe I misunderstand it. Can you explain the difference as you understand it?

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BrownBear, I have considered freebore and long throats to be the same thing. Maybe I misunderstand it. Can you explain the difference as you understand it?

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I been thinking about your question, and thought of another example that might help you see my distinction between the two.

In that Ruger #1 243, it's a "long throat" to me when seating the 105 Speer all the way out to almost kiss the rifling. But when I tried seating some 87 grain spitzers that far out, there was about 1/64" of bullet in the neck. You could shove it sideways with moderate finger pressure. I had to seat the bullet deeper, and as a result it was a long ways from the rifling. Viola! It was free-bored. But it "grouped" like a cheap shotgun with economy ammo. 100 grain bullets were somewhere in between. Seated out to the rifling, there was only a little over 1/8" of bullet in the neck. Grouped like crazy, but so little bullet was in the neck that I never carried them in the field.

BTW- With the 105 seated all the way out, the max loads were waaaaay over "book" max due to the gained powder capacity. But so were velocities with slow powders. Add in the 26" barrel of the #1 and velocities were pushing up toward the 240 Weatherby mark. But if by some catastrophic mistake someone had managed to push one of those rounds into a standard chamber, I'm betting they would have had a bomb on their hands. Hence my careful labeling of the loads.

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Thanks for the explanation and it makes sense. The way I see it, a long throat can be freebore or not depending on the seating of the bullet to or away from the lans.

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Exactly. I'm not a fan of "free bore" a la Weatherby, where the bullet has to jump quite a ways to reach the rifling. But when it works with the magazine length and bullet length, I AM a fan of long throats that let me seat the bullet out far enough to reach the base of the neck.

I don't know if the rest of the world sees my distinction, but I'm sticking to it! ;-)

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Good description

Good description

I get the distinction,

Interestingly enough, over just a bit of experience I am finding that my Sako actually likes the Jump more than the Kiss,

Couple times I have kind of stumbled onto noticing that pressing the bullet back in a bit more, like from 2.85 to 2.80 for a Barnes 110gr TTSX I have both increased velocity by as much as 200fps and picked up noticeably better accuracy? These short bullets are a long way from the lands anyway but "longer is always better" may not be the story for me. Maybe it is less open space in the case, not "compressed load" by definition, but basically more efficient use of case area powder vs. air space? I may be noticing this with the Nosler 160gr partition also, long enough to "Lands it" but pulling back into Mag max actually is better vel and accuracy?

I guess I could pour more powder in there, (NEVER OVER MAX!!!!!)

haven't seen this enough to lock in on the idea but it is interesting, hence the question, maybe Sako does this on purpose for WSM case capacity reasons, etc.?

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I don't know Sako well enough to offer speculation. And I know even less about WSMs- just no experience with them at all.

But it sounds like you're right on track, along the lines of "If it aint broke, don't fix it!"

You're doing well, and putting the right kind of thought and caution in the right places.

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What is wrong with these manufactures that make and sell these rifles all around the world, don't they know that America is the only place that makes and sells bullets? You would think that jests maybe you would throat a rife barrel for the bullets they make in the U.S.A. Could it be they might throat for other countries beside just what's available from the U.S.A.? What part of America does Finland in? I guess it's a good thing nobody makes bullets but us.

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Lapua is in Ohio, maybe?

Lapua is in Ohio, maybe?

Was just looking at Lapua for .22 info and guess what, they aren't in Ohio!! More Finlanders.....

Who'd have figur'd that out? Kinda good stuff there.

No .270wsm tho, but, I make my own now so,....

Yea, RCBS, and Nosler..... that's Bend, Oregon there

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You do know that cutting a throat for one bullet takes a little head scratching, you can imagine what kind of head scratching it takes to cut a throat so everything works? One of the big reasons why custom barrels shoot so much better than the factory barrels do, don't get me wrong but this is just one of any reasons why factory barrels are left in the dirt compared to custom barrels. that is beside looking like a sewer pipe inside.

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So what's the story

So what's the story

and that, Big Al, brings up the next question,
from a guy who is brand new to custom ammunition..... and likin' it...

What's the story on custom barrels, maybe not so bad to wear this one out??

Seriously, what is an approx cost for a real nice custom barrel, I imagine they can just pull this one and screw a barrel onto this rifle that is customized for throat length, etc? I imagine cost is hard to pin down but, several hundred, or is it out of control expensive to "Do It Right" and have a barrel that is fantastic to load for and actually improves the value of a rifle I already think is Real Good in just about every other way?

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You might do some digging at the Weatherby site or in their old catalogs for their own explanation and justification for freebore. It was supposed to do two things as I recall- hold down pressures while allowing for extra velocity, giving the bullet a "jump" before encountering the rifling. In my personal experience it compromised accuracy to a degree, and some claim it resulted in a lot more throat erosion as gases could briefly get past the bullets.

I use the term "long throat" to mean something different than freebore, though. In my uses, it means I can seat the bullets out further than factory standard, allowing more powder capacity than standard. The magazine has to be long enough to allow it, but I still seat the bullets very close to the rifling for best accuracy and there is no "jump" a la freebore.

One of the fair-haired ladies of long throating in its day was the 257 Roberts. When Remington made it a factory round, they had short action on the brain and seated it to an OAL of 2.75", shorter than most folks did in the past when loading it as a wildcat on the 7x57 case. The typical long throated Roberts allowed a 3" OAL, and there was quite a bit written about it. When RCBS built my rifle I sent them several dummy cases loaded with the Sierra 117 grain bullet to a 3" OAL, which put the base of the bullet right at the base of the neck rather than further down in the body. They used them as a measure when cutting the throat in my barrel. I had the rifle built on a 700 Remington action I salvaged from a lefty 30-06. It required a very small bit of feed rail adjustment while they were at it.

The Roberts was handicapped in the first place by loading to lower pressures (45,000 PSI like the factory 7x57 as I recall) in honor of some older rifles chambered by the wildcat. Between that and the restricted powder capacity from deep seating to 2.75", it really didn't turn out velocities to its potential. Long throating and upping the pressures to those comparable for other factory loadings results in substantial jumps in velocity. In mine I get very long case life while pretty much duplicating the velocities of the 257 AI. I have never got around to comparing case capacities, but I'm guessing the long throat brings it up very close to the AI. And barrel life has been spectacular. I've shot that rifle for 35 years, the first ten including a whole lot of ground squirrel and rockchuck shooting, and accuracy is still really good. No, it won't break half an inch like it used to, but most loads still break an inch.

Another notable example is the Ruger #1 in 243. The one I had allowed seating the Speer 105 spitzer all the way out till the base of the bullet was at the base of the neck. Funny looking thing, but it vastly increased powder capacity and velocity. I had to carefully label all boxes loaded that way so they wouldn't try to sneak into a standard rifle. Probably not much fear, because it made the round something like 3/8" longer than would fit in standard magazines. Here's the kicker- that #1 wouldn't shoot for beans with standard seating depths, but with the bullet seated out to that length and just shy of the rifling, it was a sincere one-holer.

In your case, I'm betting that long throat explains why you're not getting "book" velocities from your rifle. If it was my rifle, I'd figure out what your max OAL is with that long throat, then pray that the magazine would allow you to seat that long as a standard. I'm betting your "max" load is going to be higher than book as a result, but I'm also betting your groups really shrink.

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and that, Big Al, brings up the next question,
from a guy who is brand new to custom ammunition..... and likin' it...

What's the story on custom barrels, maybe not so bad to wear this one out??

Seriously, what is an approx cost for a real nice custom barrel, I imagine they can just pull this one and screw a barrel onto this rifle that is customized for throat length, etc? I imagine cost is hard to pin down but, several hundred, or is it out of control expensive to "Do It Right" and have a barrel that is fantastic to load for and actually improves the value of a rifle I already think is Real Good in just about every other way?

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So I'm building a new rifle on a Savage M11 action and a McGowen 6mm Rem. prefit barrel. The barrel arrived the other day so I headspaced it to my action andmeasured a few bullets for COAL. I only tried a few bullets but in those I tried it is obvious this barrel has a lot of free bore. Bullets are going to have somewhere in the neighborhood of 0.100" of jump to the lands. While I prefer to be around 0.020" - 0.030". I have a new Cooper in 7mm-08 Rem. that has a fairly long throat and so far I can't get it to shoot worth a ****.

I would be interested in hearing some experiences people have had with barrels chambered with this kind of free bore vs those where you are able to seat out close to the lands?

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What bullets? Longer, less streamlined, loaded with base near half the neck, might work.
You will need to be careful that your reloads do not cause t
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