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Forum rules
You are entering a forum that contains discussions of abuse, some of which are explicit in nature. The topics discussed may be triggering to some people. Please be aware of this before entering this forum. If you are posting about actions of yours which you feel are/were abusive please post about this in The Remorse Forum. If you have been falsely accused of abusing someone please post in the For Those Falsely Accused of Abusing thread.
Please also note that discussions about Incest in this forum are only in relation to abuse. Discussions about Incest in a non-abusive context are not allowed at PsychForums.
Thank you for your cooperation.
The Mod Team
by BrotherHobo » Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:36 pm
For years homosexuality was considered a mental illness. People who practiced BDSM or other fetishist sexual practices were considered sexual perverts. Today, we are struggling with gay marriage and all the other civil rights that married heterosexual people enjoy.
Incest has existed from the start. The very fact that an incest taboo exists at all indicates that it was a common thing in society. History is rife with stories of romantic relationships between family members. There are the obvious problems of genetic anomalies if children result from a first-tier incestual relationship, but the risk is only a few percentage points higher than a mother over 40. Genetic anomalies can result from many things. We don't criminalize people with a high risk for Tay-Sachs, or cystic fibrosis, or neurofibromatosis, so why is society so obsessed with the genetic risks of incest? We have birth control. We have vasectomies and tubal ligation. We have intrauterine genetic testing like amniocentesis. The
"deformed babies" argument no longer holds water, and truthfully, never did.
People involved in consensual incestuous relationships roughly occupy the same territory that homosexuals did in the 1950's. Millions of people are incestuous, but very few talk about it, nobody admits it, and the "ick" factor from society is punitive and harmful. Incest relationships exist in a sort of secret, "underground" world, but the vast majority of consensual incest couples are completely isolated and marginalized by the rest of society. The only relationships that are coming aboveground are the abusive, harmful ones. Rape is rape, regardless of the familial relationship between the persons involved, but it is completely inappropriate to designate every incestuous relationship as "abusive." I believe that while there should be a place for the victims of incestuous sexual abuse to discuss their trauma, there ALSO should be a place for non-abusive, consensual, ADULT people involved in an incestuous relationship to discuss the issues unique to incest. (This is NOT about rape, child abuse or sexual exploitation. I am talking about ADULT, CONSENSUAL incest.)
In particular, brother-sister "sibling" incest is very common in society, and has been estimated at about 2.5% of the population. If these polls are accurate, that would indicate that over seven million Americans are or have been involved in some type of incestuous relationship. There is a sort of "therapeutic prejudice and censorship" going on that automatically categorizes every incestuous relationship as traumatic and harmful, and the result is that people involved in incest are afraid to seek therapy for anything, for fear of being denounced to the police by "well-meaning" therapists who think they have the right and authority to make decisions about other people's lives. They think that they know what's right for everybody else, and feel justified in trying to suppress what they believe to be a negative behavior. Even discussion of incest that is not condemning and pejorative is censored off forums just like this one. People involved in incest are just like everybody else, with the single exception of with whom they fell in love. It's time to repeal criminal penalties for adult, consensual incest and let genetically-related people make their own choices, just as homosexuals do, or BDSM fetishists do, or anybody else.
by HesDeltanCaptain » Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:59 pm
Agreed. Interestingly, even the Bible condones some incestuous pairings like uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, and 1st cousins. One ultra-orthodox rabbi in particular says such unions are especially blessed:
"Wednesday, 24 October 2012
Marrying a Niece or Cousin
Dear Rabbi Brody, am I allowed according to Halacha to marry my niece or my cousin? Would there be any medical or genetic dangers? Thank you, NK from the Great Neck area
Dear NK,
Your superb question is mentioned in the Gemara, tractate Yevamot, 62b, on the bottom of the page. Indeed, our sages both encourage and bless anyone that marries a niece."
http://lazerbrody.typepad.com/lazer_bea ... -niec.html
That's the Jewish side of it. For more approval look at European monarchies and royal familes. Polynesians and Hawaiis are another group, plus the Japanese are all big proponents of incest. And as you said, with modern birth control, and I'd add genetic screening, risks of birth defects can be all but made neglible. It's really just a taboo born out of ignorance of the facts. When you can't even wave the Bible in the air, just how far from the pack have you strayed?
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I pretended to be." - Me.
by BrotherHobo » Sat Nov 16, 2013 4:34 pm
I don't want to stray too far off the topic here, but I must admit, that while I am a Christian and think that I ought to live a Christian life, that is a personal choice. I do not think any one moral viewpoint ought to be codified in law. For instance, millions of Americans are vegans, and are morally opposed to eating animals. They feel quite passionately about it, and they have many excellent arguments about dietary health, the cruelty of slaughterhouses and so on, but eating meat is legal and should remain legal. (Not to say that we shouldn't work to improve diet, slaughterhouse conditions and so on.)
Only one state in the U.S. repealed it's laws against incest, and that is New Jersey, of all places. They retained laws that protect children from sexual abuse and exploitation, of course, and laws against sexual assault. New Jersey does not permit incestuous marriage, of course, but they aren't going to be prosecuting any brother-sister or uncle-niece couples over the age of 18. Laws do not prevent behavior. We have millions of people in the U.S. who use illegal drugs. They know that it is illegal, and they just don't care. Threatening them with life in prison (this is actual fact) for trafficking in cocaine, or meth or heroin doesn't seem to mean a thing. They do it anyway.
The most common type of incestuous relationship, by far, is brother-sister. In most cases what happens is that the siblings fall in love as teenagers, then individually move far away from their family and reunite as a couple in another city where nobody knows them. Since they already share the same last name (usually), they don wedding rings and so far as the world knows, they are just another married couple. In some cases, where the woman was married before, or in the case of step-siblings, they have different last names, and they just become another anonymous co-habiting couple. Like polygamous families, essentially they "hide in plain sight." If they tell nobody the true nature of their familial relationship and do not get pregnant, or if they do have a baby, they do it through a mid-wife or some other way outside of a hospital and it's laboratory testing, no one is the wiser.
I have actually known two persons in my professional life who were the product of first-tier incest. Both were from father-daughter relationships where the daughter was a teenager, and both cases were abusive, non-consensual incest. In one case, the child was free of genetic anomalies, in the other the child had some minor problems that may or may not have been caused by the incestuous relationship (i.e., they might have occurred even if the parents were not related.) Obviously, anyone involved in consensual incest should be using an effective form of birth control.
Since consensual sibling incest is by far the most common, and according to statistics, the type least likely to cause psychological trauma, it stands to reason that it should be the first type considered for decriminalization. The issue here is not the actual incest, because that is already occurring, and is not stopped by it being criminal. The issue here, the crux of decriminalization, is the 'permission' implied, the 'acceptance' implied, by repealing the laws against incest. Consensual incest is probably going to happen anyway--it is, after all, a relationship conducted secretly -- but it makes a criminal offense a private matter, like smoking marijuana is in some states. (I don't smoke pot, and even if it were 100% legal I still wouldn't smoke it, but decriminalizing it does remove some of the stigma involved in "soft" drug use.)
by Restored » Sat Nov 16, 2013 11:30 pm
Where incest is consensual i think that people wouldnt have a need to post here in this forum as the point in coming here is that people have experienced something stressful or something that is causing concern/pain etc etc. They come for the support of their peersn not to have general discussions.
A beautiful thing is never perfect
A certain kind of darkness is needed to see the stars
by salted lipstick » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:09 am
In addition to what Restored has said, the correct forum to be discussing consensual incest would be the paraphilia's forum found here: paraphilias/
The sexual abuse and incest forum is for discussion of abuse related incest and other sexual abuse. If you wish to have another type of discussion on incest then please visit the forum I have linked to above.
In a way, I am not defined by my dissociation. In a way, I am.
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