Exclusive interview: Gigantic lawsuit against Prof. Christian Drosten & associates

Exclusive interview: Gigantic lawsuit against Prof. Christian Drosten & associates

translated by Corona Investigative


The interview was conducted on 17.9.2020 and published for the first time in the original on 18.9.2020 for all then e-mail subscribers of the "Club der Klaren Worte" (Club of Clear Words), the independent and non-partisan pro bono public platform of the publicist Markus Langemann. On 19.9.2020 then, the interview was made available to the international public on YouTube. 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich is a licensed lawyer in Germany and the USA. He studied law in Göttingen and Los Angeles. Among other activities he published on banking law, medical law and international law and was professor and lecturer at universities in Germany and Estonia. You can also read about this on his website.


Markus Langemann: Dr. Fuellmich, you are the spiritus rector of the corona damages class action. Those who do not deal with the legal profession on a daily basis are familiar with class actions, mostly only from the USA. Often in this context, you can hear and read about the monstrous sums of damage that are involved. Please let us clarify this first: What is a class action lawsuit? What is the difference between a class action and an individual lawsuit and why is a class action taken collectively? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: A collective lawsuit is originally called Class Action, so "Class" is the group and Action is lawsuit. This is only available in the Anglo-American countries, the USA and Canada. In the past, there were also class actions in England, where they were created, but they no longer exist. So very early means a few hundred years ago. 

The purpose of a class action lawsuit is to allow a large group of people who have been similarly harmed by one and the same event to seek damages in a single action. This would mean a huge group for the Corona case. Not only in Germany, but all over the world has been damaged by one and the same event, namely by the lock down. We have primarily turned to entrepreneurs, because claims for damages are the easiest to calculate and above all to quantify. Everybody else has claims for damages as well. Claims for damages for pain and suffering also come into play here, as I learned today in the Corona Committee. But this class action exists only in the USA and Canada. It should also be introduced in Germany, in a similar way, the European Commission has already demanded this from Germany on several occasions. This has all been blocked by the industry lobby. The only thing we have in Germany, and where some people believe that it is a class action, is the so-called "Muster Feststellungsklage" (Model action for a declaratory judgment). This is not good for anything, that must be said quite clearly. Now that it has played a role in the This fraud number and then failed miserably. The class action serves primarily to simplify matters. You mentioned the large sums of money before: This is often used as a criterion or point of criticism by industry-related associations, which naturally have no interest at all in the introduction of class action lawsuits in Germany. There is talk of class action lawsuit industry. However, they are confusing things a bit. The class action suit is to be distinguished from punitive damages. With the latter it comes also to high penalty sums. Punitive damages can be awarded by an American or Canadian court if the damage is caused intentionally or deliberately; or we would say in Germany by intentionally immoral damage. Yesterday I talked about this with Prof. Schwab, who agrees. Here we are dealing with intentional immoral damage. But we are not concerned with punitive damages. If a Canadian or American court says that this class action is allowed and the damage is so bad that it has come out that they are now thinking about punitive damages, then it is nice. But that's not what we are about. We are interested in the quickest and most careful preparation of the situation, the facts and the subsequent sanction of the Canadian from the US or Canadian area. 

Markus Langemann: Two questions that arise from your answer: First: Who is Prof. Schwab, what role does he play. Please enlighten us, since we are not legally trained. Second question: Did I understand correctly that a German citizen or a German businessman who can prove that he has been harmed could file a lawsuit in the course of the corona damage class action via the USA? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: That is correct. One depends on the other. Who is Professor Schwab? Prof Schwab is a renowned jurist who holds a chair at the University of Bielefeld and also teaches there. He is one of those who is in contact with reality, i.e. the reality of the courts. He runs a course for his students called "Watch the Court", which teaches students that in practice, what is taught to people in judicial education is not really true. That brings us to the second point: In legal practice, we as lawyers, but also other lawyers - and Prof. Schwab is one of these others - have found that in disputes between structurally inferior parties, i.e. individual consumers, individual investors, smaller entrepreneurs - against large fraudulent groups, such as Deutsche Bank, VW or Wire Card or Kühne & Nagel in these disputes with structural imbalance the courts in Germany very very often fail to deal with the matter in court, and the courts tend to simply accept even the brazenest of these entrepreneurs and not even take evidence of it when it is disputed. But not always, there are individual exceptions, which unfortunately confirm this rule. 

Because of this structural imbalance, a group called ADUR "Aktion Demokratie und Rechtsstaat" (Action Democracy and Rule of Law) has formed. These are lawyers, professors, but not only law professors, but also, for example, journalism professors. Then there are people from the judiciary, public prosecutors, judges. They have come together and thought about how to improve this situation. One of the possibilities that we have thought about and are still thinking about is the introduction of a real class action lawsuit. Another one is the introduction of a real sanctioned law of evidence, namely the so-called discovery, as it exists in the Anglo-American legal field. What good is the best court in the world if I do not have a reasonable law of evidence. This does not mean that we do not have a reasonable law of evidence. We do. But only in practice. In theory, it does not work at all. In practice, it's like I just said: In a structural imbalance, the courts tend to simply accept all the nonsense that is being said about the fraudulent corporations, i.e. the structurally overweight. We can't believe that these corporations are capable of lying. The last issue was Wire Card, and the first person to be investigated was the journalist from financial times, who took over from the public prosecutor's office. By then everything was already too late. In the meantime, this hesitant behavior on the part of the judiciary is likely to have caused enormous damage to those who have invested in Wire Card in any way. For example, also the people who are invested in the Deutsche Bank Gesellschaft, DWS. 


The third question was: How can a German participate in such a lawsuit in the USA? We have here the peculiarity that a defective product of a German was put into circulation and distributed in the USA, Canada and worldwide. This is related to the fact that the PCR test. This PCR test is the only basis for us here in Germany and worldwide, for the assumption of a pandemic. The PCR tests cannot and must not detect infections, are not approved for diagnostic purposes and they cannot. They can only determine that a certain fragment of a molecule has been found in the body. But this can be anything, for example the rest, the wreckage of the body's immune system's fight against a cold. Or something even more harmless: these things can also have a positive effect on papayas. As has already been circulated in the media. This means that the actual basis for the assumption of a pandemic does not exist at all. The PCR tests have been marketed with the assurance that an infection can be detected. Contrary to what is written on most package inserts. On the basis of these infections, the whole numbers from the RKI or the numbers in the USA are always circulated, all measures have been taken. So the government, the Bundestag as a whole, the opposition, in their decision to establish the epidemic situation of national importance, had only one factual basis, only one single opinion on which to base their decision. Apparently the same was true in the state governments, for example in Bavaria as well. There, apparently, there are not even any files that have to be held in front of the so-called rule of law principle so that one can check the government's actions. If it was like that, that here with a completely wrong assurance a product was brought into the market, which does not function with the purpose at all, then that is like with VW. The cars are running, but they did not meet the emission regulations, especially the Californian. There they were deceived into believing that they did, and because they were sold in the US, they are automatically subject to US jurisdiction. Exactly the same for Canada and exactly the same applies here for the PCR tests. The Germans were the first, that was the Drosten Test, which was advertised by Mr. Wieler from the RKI and which was recommended as the first test worldwide, also with the help of Mr. Tedros (there are very close relations), and was therefore marketed all over the world.

Markus Langemann: We hear and perceive: you are extremely deep in this subject. I would like to repeat a very important sentence and you can also confirm it: PCR tests cannot and must not detect infections. Is this true? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Exactly like that. On most package inserts this is also stated as "Not approved for diagnostic purposes" or in the USA and Canada "no licence for diagnostic purposes". So you are not allowed to do it at all. But somebody went out there, Mr. Drosten, Mr. Wieler and also Mr. Tedros and claimed the opposite and that was the reason for all the measures, especially the lock down. Everything else also, masks and so on, was taken. We know that this is so because we have contributed to the clarification of the situation. Here I am one of 4 members. We 4 lawyers got together and wanted to know what was going on. That is what lawyers usually do. The most important task of lawyers is not to apply the law, but to establish the facts. Many lawyers believe this wrong. In order to establish these true facts, we have gathered in this committee and asked experts on all major questions about the Corona crisis and the Corona scandal.

First: How dangerous is the virus? Second: How reliable is the PCR test? Third: What kind of collateral damage has occurred due to the corona measures? Both on the health side, such as suicides, domestic violence, operations were postponed, there were no more preventive measures, no more rehabilitation measures, but of course also on the economic side. The whole country has been paralysed. Differently than the companies, which receive subsidies with generous billion-dollar loans at least for the time being and are kept above water, a large part of the middle class entrepreneurs received much too little. 65% of all jobs are dependent on small and medium-sized enterprises and the self-employed. They have only survived because in some cases reserves for old age have been released. 

Extract from the supplement sheet of PCR test from Creative Diagnostic


Markus Langemann: I have to come back to the sentence because it sounds unbelievable and manifests the unbelievable: The PCR test cannot and must not detect infections. Where do the numbers come from that we read and hear every day on television, radio and on various websites? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: These are the results of the PCR test. These are tests that were performed with whatever PCR test. There are now 300 to 500 tests, but they all work on the same principle. The PCR test itself is a super thing, invented by an American researcher, Kary Mullis. I think he even received a Nobel Prize for it. It is a highly sensitive test that detects everything as accurately as possible. But it is highly sensitive. Therefore it has also a high error rate. But you don't have to look at this question as soon as you know that it is not suitable and not intended to detect infections. So if someone tests positive, then all this can mean anything is possible. Only one thing it does not mean, namely an infection. This can only be detected when a person also has symptoms. For example, if you wanted to detect a flu infection, it is not enough to do a test, but the person must also have symptoms, such as headaches, runny nose, or something like that. Definitely and 1000% sure, that is the result of the survey of 3 professors of immunology and a doctor of molecular biology, Dr. Arvey from Austria. Then we also heard Prof. Kemmerer from the University of Würzburg, Prof. Kappel from the Netherlands and Dolores Cahill, Professor from Dublin, Ireland. Also all the literature we have seen for this: It is absolutely certain that PCR tests, if they are positive, say nothing about an infection. 

Markus Langemann: So incredible this question: There is no PCR test that can do this? Because you talked about Drostens PCR test before and then you mentioned that there are up to 500 PCR tests. In the end you also said "PCR tests can't do it".

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: No. There is not a single one who can. Not a single PCR test can detect infection. That is impossible.

Markus Langemann: How can infections be detected? You have just tried to explain this in some detail. In the end, we are given infection figures in tables, which means that there are 35 new infections in Munich, Berlin and elsewhere. These figures are based on the results of PCR tests? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Yes, they are based on it. An example: There were some so-called hotspots in Germany; once this slaughterhouse Tönnies in NRW, then in Berlin a big dormitory and in Göttingen, where my office is. There were two large residential buildings, the so-called Iduna Center - that is, because it was once built by Iduna Insurance, with 407 apartments, and then the so-called Groner Landstraße 9a with about 700 residents. These two blocks of flats were completely sealed off because there was a suspicion that a relatively large number - I think there were 40 in the so-called Groner Landstraße - were infected by a PCR test. But they were not infected, the test simply showed positive results. I know this because I went with an Austrian camera team to this housing estate. I didn't really plan to do that, I wanted to eat there nearby, but the hotel with the restaurant was closed and my wife and I went there to have a look. In this dormitory 700 people - I think 7 or 9 days - were held prisoner.  This is a custodial measure when no one is allowed in or out. And that's because 40 people tested positive. These positive tests were publicly "infected". But that's absolute nonsense, because at some point, the doctors who did a little more than just use these PCR tests found that these positive tests had not led to infection in any case. But instead, the entire apartment building was cordoned off with a gigantic fence, police officers in combat gear and orderlies from the public order office were also provided with a kind of combat gear, then people were like from Outbreak, the movie, standing around. The people couldn't get in and couldn't get out without going through an airlock where they had to check whether they were tested or not. Afterwards we heard from some residents that we interviewed that they tested positive and still could go in and out. They claimed that they tested negative and nobody really cared about their identity. But on the outside it was a great thing that the city of Göttingen said "We care". 

Markus Langemann: Do you have an explanation of how it can happen that we rely on one man, one statement in the core and one test and this not only in Germany, but internationally.

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: In the meantime, there are a number of facts that we have established and which, taken together, allow an explanation. PCR means polymerase chain reaction. This is a kind of hobby of Mr. Drosten, who was the very first person to write a paper, which he has written together with some other people, among them one about the production of the PCR test, with which he seems to be economically connected. He wrote in a paper earlier this year that he learned from the social media that something was going on in Wuhan, China. It could be that there has been an infection with something dangerous. There were 4 people who had a flu-like condition. There was the story about the eye doctor who first sounded the alarm and then died. I want to say at this point that there are very serious courses of disease here. But there are also with every flu. Mr. Drosten saw "Oh my God, this could be something for me" and then "fumbled together" a test on the computer. Because he never saw the virus. The virus has never been in his Labour. He used an old SARS virus to get close to the supposedly new Corona virus and then sent what he had fumbled together to China and asked if it would work on the patients. That was probably the case, but it works for everyone else as well. That was the moment when he became really active and involved the RKI. They have declared the pandemic through the WHO. Now one wonders how that happened out of the blue and whether something was going on before that. There is a video of a CDU faction meeting in May 2019, which ran under the title "Strengthening Global Health - Implementing the UN Sustainability Goal", and of course one expects all the CDU grants to be there, i.e. Merkel and Spahn. But there were also other people there, namely Mr Drosten, Mr Wieler from the RKI and Mr Tedros from the WHO. Maybe Mr. Drosten and Mr. Wieler are CDU members. Mr. Tedros is definitely not a CDU member. Furthermore, the most important lobbyists were the two largest health foundations in the world, namely the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the Wellcome Trust. They talked and made speeches. I haven't fully evaluated this yet, because it's over 3 hours long. But amazing things have been said, some of which make no sense at all. But the bottom line is that, on the one hand, the story is set for May 2019 and, on the other hand, the very people who sat together in the CDU at the time are the ones who are ultimately responsible for the government - and the CDU is the strongest government - explaining this epidemic situation of national importance and declaring the lockdown. Anyway, all the people have already acted more cautiously than usual. Perhaps it would also be reasonable to keep your distance during every flu epidemic, wash your hands and observe a few hygiene rules. All in all, I don't have to believe in any stuff that is not really proven. This seems to me to have been a classic lobby number. The pharmaceutical industry on the one hand and the tech industry on the other hand have joined forces and used the aforementioned people to lobby massively. Because Bill Gates is not known for being the greatest health scientist of all times. There is a lot of money to be made here, firstly with the test, secondly with the vaccine, which could very well blow up in our faces if it is developed so quickly without the safety tests being done, but thirdly by tapping the genetic material of each of us, because that is what happens when you use these PCR tests. Basically, you don't have to resort to conspiracy theories here, but simply look at the principle of "Follow The Money", who got together when and what did they do. 

"Strengthening Global Health - Implementing the UN Sustainability Goal" Conference in Berlin May 2019


Markus Langemann: May I interrupt you once again, because I think this is very important and perhaps lost in the flood of information you are giving us: When was the CDU meeting? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: That was in May 2019. 

Markus Langemann: Long before we heard about this virus here in Germany or the German-speaking world? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Yeah, that's right.

Markus Langemann: One has to let that sink in. 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Yes, there are also things going on in the area that even back then PCR tests were sold worldwide to an increasing extent. We are looking into this, but that has not yet been confirmed. There are a number of other facts that we need to check before we can make this public. Now, by "we" I mean the people on the Corona Committee and the people who are helping us. We must not forget that we are getting incredibly great advice from scientists, from practitioners in medicine and all sorts of areas that are affected. We have partly communicated directly with the police during the demonstration in Berlin on August 29th. People help us there as well. So that we can put together afterwards what actually happened. 

Markus Langemann: Mr. Fuellmich, just assume that what you say is true. That is my assumption. So that in May 2019 the people you listed sat together and among others also political decision makers here from the CDU. It can't be in the interest of the CDU and its leaders that about one year later the country is facing ruin. Would you go so far as to say that this is a master plan? My modest little head may not believe it.

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Yes, so the industry that is affected here, the industry in general is not interested in anything but money. That is my experience from 26 years of litigation against large corporations and that is what this is all about. The only difference between the pharmaceutical industry and the big companies is that they are even more ruthless and brutal and are only interested in money. We do not need to puzzle for long. There are also judges, who in other contexts, for example in connection with VW, have written in their judgement that it is normal that deception is made in this way, because this would be in accordance with the normal pursuit of profit and this is part of capitalism. The cars that can no longer drive into the cities, there is the market in Eastern Europe. This is not a joke, but it is actually part of decisions. As far as the industry is concerned, we do not have to puzzle for long. We don't need to think about the support from politics and - I don't want to generalize - the justice system, which has been brought under control by politics. But your question concerns whether the CDU, as the most important party in government, will paralyze everything a year later. Don't they know what that means? 

Markus Langemann: Has something gotten out of hand? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Yes, I believe that nothing has really got out of hand, but that those politicians who have made the decision, who simply live in a bubble and have no contact with reality and are therefore also without empathy towards those who have come under physical, psychological, physical and economic pressure as a result of the measures. That became clear to me when a Green Member of Parliament, named Claudio David Sieber, who actually comes from Austria in Tyrol but lives in Flensburg because he married a German, revealed. He spoke on a demo on 29.08 and described in a very moving way. He is still a student, he is father of 6 children and 32 years old, but he is still a student and he couldn't go to the university because it was closed. There he had so much time and literature and tried to find out what was going on there. Something seemed strange to him. A short insertion: Every lawyer must immediately find it strange when such a massive encroachment on people's basic rights is made and this is based on a single opinion. On basis of only one opinion one will be able to base such decisions. One must always listen to the principle "audiatur et altera pars", i.e. "look at the other side as well", even the other opinion. Sieberer listened to this and understood these opinions. Mr. Sieber has listened to the opinions of experts and has said in his party that there is the perfect possibility that there is no reason to panic, because there are studies that say that the disease, in terms of its dangerousness and mortality, is within the range of normal flu. At Stanford University, a highly respected and unquestionable professor named John Ioannidis conducted a study that came to the same conclusion. 


Mr. Sieberer told this to his party people; they passed it up to the federal leadership. Then there were zoom conferences in which the federal leadership was also involved. They didn't say "Great David, that you're giving us such a chance because you've done your job," but he was vilified and bullied. Then he went public with it because he had no other choice. It turned out that the only basis for the corona measures were the opinion of Mr. Drosten and his panic-mongering and his PCR tests. The Greens on the federal executive board tried to silence him and kick him out of his offices in the Flensburg community. So it is all about power in the end. I would assume that this is not only true for the Greens, but for all other parties as well. Meanwhile, we have reports from the FDP, the AFD and the Left Party. That there is no interest at all in all other parties, at least not at the party leaders, to get in contact with the population and to meet the needs of the population. Because otherwise at least one would have said "I'll listen to Ioannidis" or "I'll listen to Prof. Mölling or Dr. Wodarg. He was, for example, the only one who stood in the way of Mr. Drosten and his helpers 12 years ago and thus prevented the worst. Although at that time already a completely unnecessary and also dangerous vaccine had been bought and partly already inoculated by the Federal Government. As a result, around 700 children throughout Europe suffer and still suffer from narcolepsy. This is incurable. 

Markus Langemann: We see here quite clearly that it does not only affect politicians within the Green Party. We see it in the case of a former SPD politician who worked in the Ministry of the Interior and has now been removed from office, suspended because he became self-responsible in his field and sent a dossier of about 200 pages to his immediate superior, where he also compiled a number of facts. But at the moment we don't hear anything more about him either. 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: But you will still hear something from him. 

Markus Langemann: Please let us know what?

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Nah, I can't say. But he is not dead and he did not flee. He talks to us and in his paper he actually only did what his job was: carried out a risk analysis and warned the federal government that there was a risk of serious damage. This in view of the fact that there is no proper basis for the measures. His paper also states that "unforeseeable claims for damages could be linked to this. Exactly as it will now come. 

Markus Langemann: Who will be the defendant? What sums are at stake? How are you trying to get the plaintiffs to come together? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Those who are primarily responsible are of course those in politics who decided on these measures. They did not act in their own expertise, but because they had an advisor. I always thought they had a lot of advisors, but they only had one - as we know thanks to Mr. Sieber's statement. This one was probably also the one on whom the state government relied for its measures: Mr. Drosten. Then there is Mr. Wieler from the RKI and the WHO. I cannot simply sue the WHO in Germany. Because there is so much money at stake here and because it is a question of clear circumstances, we have considered with our colleagues, a large group of lawyers here, in the USA and Canada, to choose the one that is most easily recognizable and who has also made the most garbage. These are the ones who claimed that the PCR could detect infections and who then pushed this PCR test to sell it worldwide. We cannot estimate how much damage will be done in the end. But a few hundred billion will not be enough. Here in Germany, I only advise the team that takes care of German clients. I am in charge of this because I have the necessary connections due to my license in California. But in the other countries of Europe, but of course also in other countries, for example Namibia, the damage has occurred in the same way. So Namibia, to mention this only as an example, everything was quiet until the aid shipment, namely the PCR tests, arrived from Germany "thankfully". From that moment on, everything collapsed and exactly the same measures were enforced as here in Germany. Also here with the help of the RKI and the WHO. Suddenly, many people who were supposedly infected and everyone who had died of something died of Covid-19. There are reports, for example from the USA and there it is verified that the doctor who issues the death certificate can collect higher fees if he writes Covid-19 on it. The hospitals even more so. Also for a ventilation you get 39.000 USD instead of 19.000 USD. We can't estimate the amount at all, but if we manage to structure our colleagues in other countries worldwide in such a way that they, too, can organize the clients, i.e. the injured parties, and then bring them into a lawsuit in the USA or Canada, then we will no longer be talking about billions. 

Markus Langemann: My common sense, which does not always have to go hand in hand with a legal mind, would now tell me: "Mr. Drosten cannot be sued because he did not make the political decisions. He has provided a test that is flawed. The political responsibility and the common sense and intellect of the politicians should have matured to the point where at least a quality control is required". This means that the lawsuit could actually only be directed against those who act politically? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: No, the impacts will come very close to the political leaders. That is the real political goal. In the end, the damages that are owed will have to be paid by the taxpayer anyway. But you have to keep one thing in mind: If you let the middle class go K.O, we will have such massive tax losses and social transfers, especially through unemployment benefits, that this will far exceed the damage. No country in the world can afford that. We are suing the aforementioned because they have deliberately made false statements of fact to deceive the public and thus also the politicians. They are primarily responsible. Also here we will some complaints about the official liability according to § 839 BGB in connection with kind 34 Basic Law. If one accuses the state of culpably erroneous behavior, then one must take the persons primarily in question. This is exactly what we are doing now. Whether in Germany or elsewhere is irrelevant. Her Drosten knows very well from virologists that he was wrong when he claimed for a long time that there is talk of infected people here and that infections can be detected with his PCR tests, although this is not the case. In the meantime, he has also backed off a bit, probably because he can already see that things are getting tighter. A part of the public has noticed that there is constant talk of infections, but nobody has been sick for months and nobody is dying. With Drosten, this is now the intentional immoral damage. In particular the immorality becomes ever larger, because he talks now also still another second wave. 

Markus Langemann: I personally have the impression that lawyers in Germany are largely ducking the question of the legality of the measures taken. I find it astonishing, when we have about 170,000 licensed lawyers in Germany, certainly with different specializations, that a few mostly small law firms are questioning with enormous effort. I find large law firms complete in this context. First: Am I wrong? Secondly: If not, why do the lawyers duck away? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: That was also my first question. I am in the phase between the beginning of February and the end of May in the USA in California, where my wife and I live on a ranch to recharge the batteries from time to time. When we saw and heard all this going on here in Germany, we couldn't believe it and then said to my wife "Let's stay here until the show is over and then we'll come back". I can, if I have very important court dates, then I can fly back briefly and then I come back again. That didn't work anymore because at the same time the panic in the USA became bigger and everybody believed what Mr. Drosten said. Not as bad as here with all the insane aggressiveness with wearing masks, self-appointed executions and mask duties and so on, but you couldn't avoid it. I first asked Wolfram Wordag, who I have been friends with since the transparency international days, when the whole thing seemed strange to me. He then referred me to Mölling and so on. At about the same time as David Sieber, without knowing each other, I made this effort because something seemed strange to me and I thought that somebody seemed to be lying to us. Then I asked Mr. Wordag whether there were still a few lawyers in Germany who were taking care of it. I made a video about this "When are the lawyers coming out of hiding" and he then told me the name "Viviane Fischer", who started a petition here in Berlin calling for a baseline study. That was the demand for clarity, for clarification of what is really going on here. She received 85,000 signatures and at some point I visited her with Prof. Homburg, who has done very commendable work as a mathematician and financial scientist. We decided to do what the federal government or the Bundestag (Federal Parliament) should have done: We set up a committee of inquiry; but we don't call the whole thing a pompous committee of inquiry, we call it a corona committee. This in order not to appear somehow presumptuous. At first with the proviso "We want to know what's going on", but in the meantime we have reached the point where each of us says that something can't be right. Viviane Fischer was the most reticent and that the matter is clear and sufficient to be taken to court. I know of 50 or 60 lawyers who, among other things, work for AFA, "Anwäte für Aufklärung (Lawyers for Disclosure)", mostly from individual law firms, and who make a huge effort. They usually lose money and do not earn any. This in order to help people because of the measures of masks, distance keeping, fines and so on. In the committee today we also discussed the basis for the measures, i.e. the regulations, the constitutional court to deal with it. As the former president, Papier, has already said, a constitutional basis is not recognizable. Then you don't even have to ask whether it is proportionate and check whether I am told that I have to show a certificate or whether a measure may only be carried out by a police officer and so on. All this is then no longer relevant if it turns out that the constitutional basis is missing. Because then everything is illegal. It is not surprising that the large law firms do not play along with this. I work with a number of colleagues who come from large law firms and have a completely different opinion than the people who run the large firms. Of course, the large firms are afraid that if they get involved in this direction, they will lose mainstream clients. The people who then work with us on these lawsuits and compensation efforts will not go public under any circumstances, because they are just like the media employees from the so-called leading media have always blown in the same direction. In the end, they are always afraid for their jobs. Many people who talk to us behind the scenes describe the situation to us in the same way. 

Markus Langemann: What about the judges in Germany? Are you aware of the fact that in Germany money is also paid to judges for courtesy verdicts? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: So I think that most judges in Germany try to do their job well. But in these cases with structural imbalance there is the big problem that the judges tend to be inclined towards the big corporations. Here without any sense of wrongdoing, and no matter how fraudulent they are. The individuals who do not do this confirm this rule. But in principle we must have the hope that the justice system will work. Prof. Schwab, who grew up in Regensburg and can speak Bavarian, said in an interview yesterday or the day before, that the test is on the example. The PCR test for the justice system will be done with these cases. It will be found out whether there is still living matter on the way or whether they are already dead, dead debris. That is what you often find in the PCR tests. 

It has to be checked in the criminal law if these measures like fines because of the distance regulation, even this action against such persons and even worse is legally okay or not maybe coercion is involved or even bodily injury if people are thrown off the train because they do not wear a mask although they have a mask certificate. This has to be legally processed. We will see whether the German judiciary is capable or whether what we see here now is ultimately only the crowning glory of what has already been seen before at Deutsche Bank, VW and Wire Card, and also at Kühne & Nagel. There, the judiciary has closed both eyes in order not to have to see certain true facts. But I still have the confidence in principle. A lot depends on how the public as a whole behaves, how the media landscape as a whole behaves. I have no doubt whatsoever that one way or another the clarification will take place in the Anglo-American countries, and that then, if necessary, even if the German judiciary legitimizes what we believe to be completely lawless actions, whether the German judiciary can still make a mess of things, I don't think so. First of all, I take a positive approach and do not assume that the German judiciary is "brought into line.

Markus Langemann: If listeners have given us their attention for just under an hour now, then we should at least now give them something solid to take away with them, namely: how could they recognize whether they themselves are aggrieved and if they do, how can they participate in the class action on what terms? What do they have to do in concrete terms?

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: We deliberately turned first to the entrepreneurs, including the self-employed, because the calculation of the damage is so beautifully simple. You look up what you have made in 2019 between March and June in terms of sales minus costs, i.e. profit. Then you look at the same period in 2020, and the difference is the damage. That does not cover the whole damage, because it will continue as long as the mask zombie phase lasts, people will say that they do not want to go to the restaurant or the pub or the hotel or that they do not like to fly. That means the damage will increase. For such purposes there is in the German, just like in the American and Canadian civil law the possibility to make a declaratory motion. One writes then into the complaint that the defendant or the defendant must be condemned first to pay for example 50,000 euro and secondly is to be stated that also all large damage, which is not yet quantifiable, is to be refunded. Then we have covered everything. 

The entrepreneurs, who are in this situation and can calculate and quantify a damage plus a declaratory motion, can assert their damage over any German lawyer anyway. One can assert these damages over each German lawyer after German right. Prof. Schwab and I and also the other colleagues agree on this. But it is also about this corona damages class action. There is a website called corona-schadensersatzklage.de and there were forms that are easy to understand. But you can also communicate with the lawyers there who are working on the whole thing. There you can join the corona damages suit. The team of lawyers will then evaluate everything and make it "bite-sized", that as soon as the class action is allowed, then everyone worldwide who is affected by this damaging event, i.e. by the lock down, which is only based on the PCR test, can bring in their claims for damages. 

Markus Langemann: What time frame are we talking about here? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: As soon as the court says that this class action "goes", a window opens and then you probably have half a year to file your claims. However, this has to be done by the lawyers who have dealt with these cases, but without the help of a lawyer it will be difficult. Because the typical thing about these class actions is that if the court concludes that it is best to act as a class action, then it will be published in the media worldwide through the media. You can read about it in the big daily newspapers and everyone who knows about it has to see that you can bring your claims into this class action. But this is not a compulsion, it is just a possibility. Whoever believes that he is better off with this than making a single claim can join in. If he joins, then he becomes a member of this Class, this group of complaints is, then he wins, if the one, representative plaintiff wins. So a single plaintiff, he is typically affected and therefore represents the whole group, the whole "Class". If that one wins after the beautiful Anglo-American law of evidence has been applied, then all others have won as well. In contrast, our system of evidence is Stone Age. Then all others have won as well and then I have a title, namely a judgement in the hand. This judgment is also enforceable in Germany. Not regarding punitive damages, but that is not the issue at all. It is only about the compensation of the actual damage. This is also enforceable here in Germany. I believe we have a reciprocity agreement with all or almost all American states. This means that we mutually recognize each other's verdicts. But punitive damages are not enforceable, because the so-called "ordre public" speaks against it, but I will withhold more details from you now. 

Markus Langemann: Mr. Fuellmich, you said so nicely " when the window opens". Do you have an idea when the window could open? Do you have any empirical values? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: This depends mainly on how quickly we are able to talk to law firms and colleagues. There are also some, there are PCR class actions against manufacturers - not German, but American and Canadian manufacturers. It is easier there, because the manufacturers are the problem. So the case is actually quite simple. But first you have to understand: what is a PCR test, what can it do and why is this PCR test in the center of the action? Or to put it very briefly: If there was no PCR test, there would not be a pandemic. 

Markus Langemann: I was not able to get a concretely formulated time frame from you.

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Yeah, sorry! I talk to them and I just don't want to be thrown over my knee and end up going out with a law firm that will be bought away from me. That is a very big problem. There's a lot of money at stake here and if I were to discuss in public which law firm is better, I would have to expect someone to say "Hey guys, you don't have to try so hard. There are already 200 or 500 million here and that's the end of the problem. I do not want that. So the whole thing has to be handled carefully and precisely. We have to get to know the people personally, as far as I can't trust people I know. The case has to be handled really well. It may be that a law firm is great with class action, but has no idea about PCR tests yet. We still have to do a bit of educational work. But roughly speaking: in 3-4 weeks there should be clear conditions and we should be able to say "Now it's starting". 

Markus Langemann: And this is known by people who want to join this lawsuit how? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: If the court admits this action as a class action, the court will ensure that it is published worldwide. In this case it is not only one country that is affected, but the whole world. I guess even the leading media will then have no choice but to report on it. 

Markus Langemann: Thanks until here! Finally, I have a few questions: The most important question, as I personally think, is about your personal motivation. Are you looking for recognition? attention? Do you need money or are you a Don Quixote? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: If it had been up to me, I would have sat it out in California. All around me there is a huge valley. Anyway, it's not about money. It ain't about me. I haven't made a cent with it yet. You don't have to. I have big proceedings going on, which I think I can live on quite well without having to earn extra money here. If I do my best here, I will earn money with it, but I think you can limit yourself to a success fee. And I will only earn that if success is really there. 

So why am I doing this? Because my wife said "We can't stay here. You can't just watch. You can do stuff like that." Apart from that, the fact is that in the cases I've been involved with every day, I've always had to deal with large corporations. I have no fear of contact. I myself once worked for the Deutsche Bank in Tokyo 27 years or so ago. That was one of the reasons why I studied law. Just like my father decided to become a policeman. As pathetic as it may sound, he wanted to do justice. And that's what I'm all about. That was my motivation. I also didn't go to a big law firm where I had to sell my soul and would have had a lot of money for it. So that's definitely not what I am about. I couldn't stand it, just because someone has a lot of money and at the same time obviously has a completely broken personality, thinks he can rule the world. I don't mean anybody in particular, but after the hearings we had in our committee, Professor Ruppert, among others, was heard. At that time I asked myself how someone can have so little empathy and how people die alone and isolated, their relatives are not allowed to come. Can someone who is dying still be infected at all? Prof. Ruppert explained to us that these people usually don't feel any empathy at all, although they may have learned some social skills and usually come from a very broken family background, which somehow covered it up. Anyway, I don't want what happens now to determine my daily routine and life for the rest of my life. My wife doesn't want that either and a lot of people don't want that either. I really don't give a damn about money. But I don't want this. 

Markus Langemann: Thank you very much. Then the most important question remains for me at the end: In your opinion, what is the Corona complex that we all suffer from here now, in our society? Obviously the values and norms? Would you say that we can also take something good with us?

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Yes, every thing has two sides. You also have a positive side here. Because everything that we could and should have seen long ago and have seen, but have repressed, has really come to light through Corona. There was a thin turf above and below it - let me put it badly - the shit is boiling under it. There are so many individual problem points that a solution to this recognized problem, to these many problems, can only be approached holistically. We also heard this at the hearing of our experts. It's about the abolition of factory farming. One of the experts is a professor of business law, Prof Kreis, who never operated with numbers, but simply said, how can we allow these poor animals to be tortured in this way. Another topic is social justice: How is it possible that we buy T-shirts for 2 € here, which are put together by small children somewhere in Bangladesh and get nothing or only a few cents for it. The limitation of the power of the corporations is certainly related to this. But we also have to think about how we can deal with the climate catastrophe. We have to fight global warming. We probably have to set completely new socio-political accents. We will have to restructure. In my view, this is the only real positive outcome of the Corona scandal: that the view of all this is being revealed and that so many really, really good people are coming together here. Not the front line of politics. Not the front row of business. Rather, it is usually the second, third and fourth rows that can suddenly show what they can do. And we saw in committee that this is possible, and we will continue to do so. 

Markus Langemann: If there were now a piece of paper, a white A4 sheet of paper, on which the sentence "Let us think for ourselves and let us remain democrats" would be written. Would you sign it? 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Yes immediately. 

Markus Langemann: Many thanks for the interview. 

Dr. Reiner Fuellmich: Thank you for the opportunity. Thank you very much. 



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