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Oh jesus god what if this complexity extends to other topics? Best not to do think about it. On a purely evolutionary basis, men shouldn't really take no for an answer, as it reduces their chances of spreading their unique genetic code. Damn agenda based consent morality shit sneaking in to ma sex ed! Stick to the biology! Not necessarily. Humans are weak enough when born that care by both parents is critical compared to the more developed infants of other species. Humans are weak enough when born that care by both parents is critical compared to the more developed infants of other species That's assuming that when you leave, she's left alone. But we're social animals and hang around in groups. The group can help her raise the kid. Your job is to spread your seed as much as possible. You should also just beat the shit out of everyone weaker than you and force them into servitude. Since humans are one of the most social animals around, trying to use brute force alone to stay on top will quickly lead to the rest ganging up on you. Thus in evolutionarily terms it's not enough just to be the strongest. As the size of the group grows you'll have to band together with other like minded strong individuals to force yourselves upon the weaker ones, yes. But if you keep going along this line of thinking, unbiased biological arguments fall apart completely. Beta spotted. Mass shootings a regular occurrence. Limit gun availability? It's not the guns, it's the mentals using them! Invest in mental health services? That's Communism! Because that is how it is portrayed in some media outlets. But it's more like: Invest in Mental Health Services? Lazy do-nothing free-loading entitled fuckers can't pull themselves up by the Bootstraps and Jesus? Given the number of firearms in circulation in the US and the 'from my cold dead hands' brigade wouldn't it be more cost effective to invest in public mental health services and de-stigmatise mental health issues than enforce stricter gun control laws? Curing all of them of this mental illness would take a while but would definitely be worth it in the long run. Can you answer the question? I already did, no agendas beyond education, no pushing abstinence for example instead of education, no encouraging activities under the age of consent, no non-science based teachings, nor any other agenda-driven policies, just pure biology and human sexuality education which includes detailing human relationships and the variety of ways they exist. If you have a problem with that, raise it. Don't be coy about mate. Again, what is 'the agenda de jour' as you see it, and why must it be stopped? Contextual explanations etc? I don't think you know what coy means, either. I'm not being coy, I'm being extremely direct. I ask direct questions here all the time, usually replied to immediately 'you're a dumb American moron', 'you're a Republican Facist' and 'Derpy derp derpy derp anime! I'm still waiting to hear how Hillary Clinton has more legislative experience than Bernie Sanders, for example. This is a counter-productive abuse of education to suit a specific moral standpoint of limited real world use, like teaching kids not to buy guns at all in a gun safety class a point liberals should probably make in dicussing gun issues, frankly, cause Cons have no answer for it. Conversely, I've heard but cannot support with links stories of Sex-Ed programs encouraging children below the legal age of consent to 'experiment, try a little of everything', a position which IMo goes over the line from education to advocation. If that does not answer to your satisfaction, I'm afraid you'll simply have to live with that disappointment. But there's a reason people respond to you with insults about being a dumb right wing american because you bring up all those issues in answer to such a simple question about sex education. Does every subject have to be about Hilary, Guns or Oppression of the Right with you? I raised Hillary only tangentially, pointing out I rarely get direct civilized answers here with some exceptions, Erich for example is exceptional despite his disdain for me , so forgive me if I lack a feeling of debt to reply to your satisfaction. I raised Guns only insofar as exemplar for pointing out a rather clear-cut hypocrisy of the U. They want to teach 'abstinence' for sex, but suggest to them that they teach 'abstinence' about Guns and righties would blow their tops. A funny thing, IMO. Pointing out a hypocrisy of the right is hardly 'oppression of the right', nor does my lack of support for their 'abstinence' program amount to 'oppression of the right' either. Beyond that, I have no idea what you're trying to say on that point. I'm not quite clear what else you're expecting or hoping for me to say on the topic, i. Sorry for not giving it to you. You asked for agenda-based education agenda items, I gave two. Sorry if you wanted three. Who knew that support for factual education and broader support for Sex-Ed and inclusiveness would elicit such By the way, this IS the U. Gun Violence thread, so gun talk here is, after all, more appropriate than Sex-Ed talk. Perhaps you should start a Sex-Ed thread if you want to expand the debate more broadly. I won't be partaking as I have no kids, so I don't overly care whats taught in any great detail as long as it teaches inclusiveness of all legal sexuality i. Oh, is he pulling the 'lol i troll u' response? I'll believe that when he outs himself as a trolling homosexual Canadian who votes Green and works as a scientist in a university. It was a nice ad-hom you made rather than addressing my actual point. In the US I'm suggesting that dollar spent on mental health would probably save more lives than a dollar spent on gun control. I'm sorry Lark you aren't being emotive enough so the point will be missed by our transatlantic cousins who require hyperbole and hysteria to communicate. Top down hierarchies actually work surprisingly well. Everyone wants the benefits of being on top but few want to make the sacrifices or risks to get there. You will have to contend with a small portion of group who are ambitious but that's about it. One of the first things you're taught in leaderships schools is that most people want to be led. Makes me wonder what leaderships school you went to, honestly He's not wrong though Yes he is. Top down hierarchies only work in specific cases, mostly quite limited ones. And then only in the best case scenario. Even the military has given up on it way back in fact. Other organisational forms have proven themselves far better suited for all others. And there's nothing to shout about the whole rat-race to the top. It produces some very nasty side-effects indeed. Because most people don't just want to be led. They prefer to be at least consulted. Even if that consultation has only marginal effect on the decision making process. It's just another one of these angsty right-wing theories: what we need is a strong leader with the power to just tell everyone what they should do. One nation, one volk, one leader! You'd think that by now we'd learned our lesson. BTW, it's also the reason why organisation consultancy is a thing. Guess what they throw out first? Yup: overly hierarchical power and organisation structures. TheBomby champions the cause of Demarchy. Head implants for everyone and constant, subliminal referendums being voted on. This explains so much about you. So what should we do about it? Impose our own top down hierarchy obviously. Are you our leader? Tell us what we must do! Take me to your leader Well first of all you have it backwards. Top down works in most situations with alternative leadership structures are intended for niche functions. I'm curious how the hell you came to the conclusion that the military has given up on it? Top down includes multisectional divisions as you scale to match the group. In the context of the statement to which I was responding, I get the feeling that you think I was strictly talking about using force to maintain control. Most people want to be lead. Most leaders want to be consulted. If given a choice between, 'here's some advice to help you pick the best thing' and 'I've evaluated you so here's the best thing' and most people will choose the later. Most people don't like tough decisions as it's stressful and want to take the path of least resistance. A trusted source e. Ansty right-wing? Godwin intercedes I see. It's pretty bad that you confuse strong leadership with fascism. Organisation consultancy? Most of it is dedicated to executive leadership coaching. Restructuring is all about streamlining leadership communication. They don't get rid of it. They enhance it. Yeah I think I see where the confusion is coming from here. Let me clarify. I completely agree that using force as the sole means of control is a bad choice. But having that force available to you will make others want to be part of that. Technically I was partially agreeing with both you and Frug. But then I'm a conservative nazi with internalized misogyny and hate my own race so just proceed as usual. So disarm black civilians and white policemen? Also the whole thing was later repealed. Now big tobacco The problem is when people start considering schools, workplaces, public settings as ranges. Which unfortunately is quite common because a percent of gunowners get them so they can shoot, or threaten to shoot, other humans. It's just a little choking Oh god, the fucking comment sections on the WP's gun articles. Jesus wept what a load of shite. At this point I'm quite certain I'll never go to the US, no matter how amazing things might be in some places. Fuck fearing for your life. Varc, I think he's saying the WP commentators people in the USA are constantly fearing for their lives, which is why they own guns. Personally, I think fearing for your life constantly is a sign of an unhealthy mind. Could be didn't bother reading the comments. But that's the only reason to want to own a firearm So basically all gun owners are paranoid nutters, nbs. Why aren't loads of black people getting gunned down on a daily basis in the Channel Islands? I have no idea what this post is trying to say so I'm going to assume you're being edgy as usual. They can't afford the ferry to Jersey. But that's the only reason to want to own a firearm So basically all gun owners are paranoid nutters, nbs If you say so. Nothing I'll say would convince you otherwise. My State has a lot of hunters. You'd think a crazy far-right-wing stupid fascist nut like me would know lots of survivalist personal protection gun hoarders Funny enough, the one I do know is a Democrat. Odd, I guess. Constitutional rights can and regularly are restricted for minors. No voting, limited free speech, etc. Then it's obvious, gotta lock the toddlers better, chain them to something maybe, to prevent them from maliciously abusing the 2nd. Freedom for the toddlers too! Post-birth Abortions. It's the only way to be sure. I'm glad you volunteered it should start us on the road to sorting things out quite well. California was most excellent as long as you stayed the fck away from LA. At least this one may have a reasonable excuse for Florida man. I mean if I was on bath salts, had a gun, and was a zombie festival, this might happen too. Portland is pretty cool. NYC is worth seeing. Just pretend the US is a continent and the states are all countries. Now the deep south is the middle east. Why would anyone go to the middle east? It's complicated and depends on your race, luck, and paranoia factor. For example there's a significant white supremacist movement up in Ohio. Old rust belt cities like Detroit and Cleveland are pretty bad. I've gone through all of those on a bicycle, except for Miami, and was fine. There were definitely areas that I tried to get out of asap especially before dark. The Gulf Coast is pretty nice, Big Bend National Park Texas is in the deep south by some definitions, not by others was awesome, I've heard good things about Cape Canaveral from space nerds. There are some pretty nice parks on the Florida panhandle west through to New Orleans and beyond. Great old trees covered in hanging moss. Graveyards full of cool mausoleums in New Orleans. For sheer dramatic scenery you obviously want to go to the west if you have to pick one place. If you are into music and southern food you may do better in the South. This is fair enough tbh. You wouldn't want to visit Iran? I actually would like to visit their country sometime. I'm sure that's no worse than the courts in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Pakistan. True, I wouldn't want to go through law there, but hey, I've never been there, seen their people, eaten their food there , etc. Just as an aside, Bath Salts is an American catchall for a wide variety of drugs, including mephedrone, used by drug enforcement to scare people. The problem is that mephedrone and most of the others under the umbrella don't do any of the crazy things described. Using it either distracts from any other outlying issues or fails to adequately identify the offending drug if there even is one. Thats like saying you wouldnt want to visit the USA because of Guantanamo. You should eat someone's face when not on drugs to drive your point home. Its Florida dude, they'll find a way. It's Florida. That's all that ever need be said. But Volusia County has, per wiki, a population of , If a police force for that sort of population has two makeshift APCs and I am assuming it doesn't have other fully-armoured assets here then that's okay by me. And I mean you can't have ONE vehicle for a job. These aren't aircraft with 1 hour of use and 60 hours of repair, but they still have downtime. Mind you I can think of a billion better alternatives than an M, but a hand-me down is just that. So long as personnel are trained in its use, then frankly that's okay. I'm not so concerned with what tools are available to law enforcers. I'm much more concerned with the culture and procedures that introduce those tools at an early time, without good restraint, effectively escalating situations. The problem is that police forces of all sizes from larger-than-most-countries-armies to pissant podunk one-horse have been over-militarized with cheap handmedowns for years. Partially a symptom of declining budgets for the fundamentals of a functional society courtesy of the crazy right mediasphere, which results in aforementioned police gladly accepting the discounted goods the government is selling them, and partially because we have so much military hardware being built that I'm sure it seems wasteful to -not- find a use for it all. I'm sympathetic to Florida cops because they have to deal with an extra level of crazy and maybe an APC or two isn't such a bad idea. But the program that gets them all this military gear was a bad idea to start with. Without ammo, the gun's rather useless other than as an intimidation tool. I don't see the problem. Perhaps they can spend their money better on more training. To, you know, not shoot black people at the drop of a hat? Just a thought I can think of several countries, with millions of inhabitants, where the police do not own a single tank. Hell, Boris didn't even get his water cannon! And London's not the smallest city I know off. A boom stick without the boom, is just a fancy stick, right? Conversely if you put it to sleep without the power cord you needed to wake it up without. MRAPs are awful to actually fight of though. There's a single tiny little door that's almost five feet off the ground that all of the dismounts need to exit out of. Last I checked the police don't actually have tanks. Reports are just to lazy to look up what shit really is. If it has tracks it's definitely a tank. Same with guns. People react to things, often visually. So can I and I'm an anti gun british person hehe but visually, if you changed the colour palette in the second image so they're in green cammo and photoshopped out the word 'police' And so yes, when there's a heavy vehicle with a turret, with tracks, yes your average person in the USA It's because it's not normal. It's not what people are used to. And for a good reason. If the police, in all hand on heart honest to god truthfulness believe that they need these I'm sorry, something is very wrong. EITHER the criminals are totally out of control like in Mexico, or the Police are wildly, wildly not in control of the situation or have created such animosity that those things are required. From their own friends and family. In a first world country. Whichever is true and I suspect it's actually a case of boys playing with toys and not wanting to give them up, because they weren't good enough for the army, so became a police guy and now enjoy the power trip and playing soldier see mall security who couldn't make it as a cop etc it's not a comfortable situation. I'm just going to say that if those manbabies are going to threaten suicide over the fact someone took their toy away, they aren't fit to eat with metal cutlery, let alone be LEOs with an APC. Possession of said equipment does not mean said equipment is commonly used. Furguson, yup, alot of that shit rolled out. And they got tons of flack for it. On an every day basis the cops don't roll out in APC's, 'tanks' and full-auto machine guns here. When the big shit hits the stinky fan, i. Riots and mass looting and civil unrest, etc. Now, the Cops have de facto National Guard Millitary gear, the national Guard is off fighting foreign wars till recently , and the Cops often fill the old Ntl' Guard role of Riot suppression and millitary-esque peace keeping in times of strife. But now, as then, those times of strife are still pretty rare, one, two times a year maybe? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it's more than that. The average U. Citizen will never, ever, in their entire lifetime, see cop AFV's tooling about. Natural Causes? Oh I guess nothing is wrong here, move along. Corey Jones, 31, a drummer in the area, was stranded on Interstate 95 due to car issues, his family members reportedly said. The Palm Beach Gardens police said in a statement that Officer Nouman Raja, who was driving an unmarked car, had stopped to 'investigate what he believed to be an abandoned vehicle' around a. The family has reportedly said that Jones did have a concealed carry permit because of his job as a property inspector, according to NBC affiliate WPTV. However, the Florida Department of Agriculture, which oversees these permits in the state, would not confirm that Jones had a permit, citing privacy law. Everybody gets to do drugs midshow while the mouthbreather gets his 5minutes in the spotlight! Or alternatively 5 outfight changes if you're axel rose and just don't give a fuck. We've had this discussion before. Below is what most US dept. The old vehicles had a litany of problems that limited their flexibility. Their tires and suspension meant no offroading so rural call outs were a no go. The suspension system was usually close to max hauling all of that armor which made jumping curbs or any rough handling a risky issue. Everything had to be custom built for them so it wasn't modular. The list goes on. Yes, first world country police need armored boxes to block officers from incoming fire, use at mobile shielding, rapid insertion into an area, and so on. The unarmored soccer mom mini-vans actually called riot vehicles used during the London riots turned out to be wholly inadequate for actual riots. You'll notice the similar shape but the Bearcat is purpose built to address the other issues that old armored cars had. It's superior to all other armored vehicles That doesn't diminish the need for a giant moving metal box for use by the police. So when the government offers a dirt cheap discounts or completely free with only the need for a paint job then US police depts are going to jump at the chance and rightly so. Old fashioned M's are usually in police inventories because they got them years ago and there were few other options available. Many are probably older than the posters here. Tracked vehicles are super rare. Something something if he had a gun something something. Murderd by or murder the police. If he'd been murdered in a school shooting he would never have killed the police officer over a stolen bike. I prefer my armored police vehicles to be British. Dat Northern Ireland, almost like Detroit! Well, Chico is the most redneck town in California. But the police markings are photoshopped. Chico has a bearcat. If they do have actual eastern bloc armor, they've kept it more secret than their still and grow operation. And with Rangerovers no less. Tin cans basically. Hard men. Not those nancypants 'Mericans with all their tanks and armour. And a good number of 'hard men' died riding in those 'tin cans'. Given the threat faced by US police forces in urban areas even though it may be less than that faced by British troops during the troubles I don't think anyone can blame them for up armouring. Lol, roll out the tanks guys! What's the difference between policing in the US and the fucking troubles anyway! Militarise away! Their homicide rate is also significantly higher at 5. There you go, bringing in facts and figures into it again! Don't you ever learn? The apocalypse is coming! Who cares about facts and figures! The lord is about to judge us all! Maybe the decreasing homicide rate is a result of uparming? Maybe not. Maybe you could be bothered to do some research. And by research I mean just looking up some papers or summaries since somebody has done the actual heavy lifting for you. Maybe you could do something about your encroaching police state by voting for Trump Well mass murdering shooters aside: Police deaths are on a downward trend nationwide USA I was going to use the phrase civilian vs civilian deaths are down but then the police are civilians, so public vs public violent crime is on a downward trend Have been decreasing on average since before I was born. Now they can say they need APCs or tracked vehicles?? I do not see a need for increasing police arms or vehicles. Quite the opposite, according to the facts. Now they're throwing a tantrum because they're being taken away. The reason they were not good enough for the army or military is because they are either too stupid or too eager to fuck around with dangerous equipment without regard for consequences. Simply put, they can't be trusted with them. Please link these papers or summaries that show the cause s of the declining death rates of Police Officers. Hey, can you please prove this assertion that you never claimed? I've got my goal posts ready. It's clearly because white police officers are murdering black babies. That's been a counter-influence in fact. The decrease is mostly to do with removing lead from the environment. More guns in Merica, given the choice between a snatch rover and a guess where you would find me. Charges Pending we can hope? Crime reduction does not mean that you should not take advantage of new technologies. The use of armored vehicles has a history almost as long as the motor vehicle itself. Having an armored vehicle isn't a detriment to any department but being without one means having to borrow from nearby larger city departments who have the budget and which your smaller city will have to rent or do without. Less risk vs making an ignorant public not get their panties in a bunch I would rather go less risk. An armored box isn't a tank. Yeah, but has it not occurred to you to ask yourself what kind of country needs a M in Bumfuck, Oklahoma in the absence of a civil war? An M? Probably the one that got a super awesome deal I call it cowardice in the face of the mundane, but whatev's. Perhaps a question better posed to those of the 'afraid to visit the US for fear of being shot by cops or becoming the victim of the widespread constant white supremacist roving racism gangs' belief. Also, thank God no guns in Euroland or this Euro-Nazi would have done far far worse. But proves the point, in US this Nazi would have killed perhaps dozens. With a sword, only two Before Euro cops blew his ass away. Police in Nashville tweeted that the violence arose after an apparent row over a dice game on Thursday night. Police did not say whether those involved were students. It was unclear if a suspect was in custody. The latest incident comes a week after three people were wounded by gunfire at an off-campus party near the college. Strangely he may have been more effective with a sword. The Swedish news reported that the attacker was specifically targeting kids of immigrant families. Bear in mind, getting rifles for hunting is not an impossible task in Scandinavia. He seems to have left behind a manifesto, or a letter to be specific. The police haven't released details of that yet. Teacher should have had a carrot. Freddie Grey Mom attempts suicide. He likes that fact that the police can cause misery to more than just the people they murder. I'm a hippie, I don't want anyone to be miserable or unhappy or sad, frankly. No, I posted it because the Grey case was widely discussed here, and this ramification of that event was worth pointing out. I freely admit my person circumstances have, at times, made me cold to drug addicts. A personal failing of mine, perhaps. But no Mom, good or bad, should be driven to suicide. Having lost my Dad that way, I am sensitive to that. When it's something you can related to you finally care. I freely admit my personal circumstances have, at times, made me cold to and about drug addicts, amongst other things. A personal failing of mine. You have historically shown approximately zero empathy to anyone who isn't straight, white, middle class and employed. Well other people only have themselves to blame for being the way they are. Especially those gay, 'urban', poor unemployed people There is simply no meaningful way to reply to such a narrow and selective reading of my opinions as this. Portraying me as anti-gay? And a racist too? Going to ask me when I stopped beating my wife next? I will once again admit, I am less sometimes much less empathetic towards the non-disabled, non-unusual-hardship, long-term-poor long-term-unemployed of any race or ethnic group in the United States. Again, shaped in large part by personal experiences and biases. On that score, yes, I lack generalized empathy, yes. Tell us some more about how 'The US isn't a racist country'. Your tragic lack of self-awareness isn't even annoying any more. It's clearly some kind of disability. The US is not a racist country, we are a country with a small percentage of racists within it. Just like the UK. We're certainly no more, or less, racist than the UK is. But again, talking with the likes of you is pointless. You're a firebrand for whom there can be no civil discourse, no middle-grounds, no shades of grey and most certainly no dissension or disagreement with your viewpoint. We either agree with you wholesale Just like above. Civil, mature discourse and disagreement is simply beyond you. You're only recourse is the same old constant, unending stream of personal insults. Edit: By the way, if I was truly 'tragically lacking self-awareness', I would't know nor admit that I lack empathy at times for drug addicts would I? Takes self-awareness to see ones own faults. What are your faults Malc? He likes food too much. I'm goddamb lazy too. Wouldn't have happened if the food had a gun. Poasting from my couch. Being lazy is good. Lazy makes you think about things and do it smarter unlike those work-shy assholes that can't be bothered to do a proper job. Hackers are lazy in that they'll spend a few hours to automate a process that normal people will waste 5 minutes a day on for years. Laziness is how smart people do more with less effort. You can only use so many guns in a spree killing Been accused of 'unlawful battery and assault'. He's a coach ina gym and squats kg pounds in some videos. Richmond County Sherrif has reported that he's been suspended pending an investigation. The woman, named as Allie Carter, 25, was hunting waterfowl on Saturday in the north of the state, Jonathon Boyd, an Indiana conservation officer said. She put down her gauge shotgun but her chocolate Labrador stepped on it, shooting her in the foot. To add insult to injury, the dog was named Trigger. Mr Boyd said she suffered injuries to her left foot and toes and has since been released from hospital. He said Ms Carter had not completed a hunter education course and urged all prospective hunters to do so. Seems to me he should urge all prospective hunting dogs to go through those educational courses. Arm the animals!!! Well that small child who was quietly seated and making no movement was being insufficiently servile while Brown, so she deserved to be beaten. Her family will be happy to get the compensation money for what was her fault anyway. They never look kind, or friendly or particularly tolerant of the non-compliant individual, and almost always look like they are excessive in force. It's especially ugly looking when the person being taken down is younger, no doubt. Watch an episode of the U. This, however: Cop involved Ben Fields has a history of assaulting students, apparently. Will certainly be used in court against him if true. I know literally nothing of the case in the video above apart from just watching it, so I have no idea if it was justified or how it'll play out. Sure, that might look harsh but the girl wasn't actually injured nor is he trying to injure her. He's actually dislodging her from that bench quite nicely indeed lifting her backwards down to the ground then pulling her out of the bench. The disturbing thing to me is that a cop needs to get called to get her to leave the classroom. She can refuse leaving when the teacher tells her to all she wants but when a cop does it you actually have to obey. Indeed, a broader question s : 1. Why was a police officer called into a classroom? What led to that being something a Teacher felt was required, and did the Teacher make an error in judgement doing so? Why did the Student seemingly not comply with either authority at the School? Broadly speaking, if a Student is being disruptive or worse, and refuses the teachers order to leave class, what is the correct action to be taken? Surely the Teacher must have the authority to mange their classroom, including expeling a student for disruptive actions or the like, right? I feel pretty bad for everyone involved. The girl probably has a shit life with very little prospects, the teacher just wants to get on with their damn job and the cop probably doesn't want all the scrutiny this will invite. Some sort of tiff with another pupil. Assistant teacher asked her to leave, she refused. Teacher asked, she refused. Vice principal came and ordered her to leave, she refused. Eventually they called the police and he ordered her to leave. She refused. He made her. I don't doubt calling the police was the correct course of action; what else are you going to do? But I'm not sure he managed the situation particularly well. At least he didn't shoot her, I guess. And he could have been a lot more gentle instead of throwing her around like that. If it were me, I'd make it very clear that if she didn't get up, she'd be placed under arrest. I'd then explain what that would mean - parents called, possibly a criminal record, possible expelling from school she really seems to want to stay heh and run that by her and asked her again to get up. If she refused I'd cuff her and yes have to physically remove her She's a 16 year old girl, he's a giant man who can benchpress half the class at once. He didn't need to do that. Surprisingly, I'm somewhat agreeing with mr. Alistair here. Having a police officer handling nonviolent school disputes i. Actually, a dispatcher should simply have stated that 'if no crime is being committed, we unfortunately have no reason to send an officer over' in the first place. Police do not discipline disruptive students, just as the military do not police crime. I can only speak from the perspective of the socialist hellhole that are the Nordic countries, but here the pupils in general tend to respect the authority of the teacher, and the teacher should have the proper education to defuse situations like that. Namely, one alternative could have been to politely inform the pupil that she was misbehaving, then have her peer group other pupils condemn her actions, then ignore her, and after the class had ended present her with a disciplinary and corrective punishment detention, temporary discharge from school, or similar where she would have to face the consequence of her actions. Nevertheless, we do not know what led to the incident in question. But unless it was crime-related nor was the pupil a threat to others, I see no reason for the officer to be there in the first place. You say non violent but Nothing violent, no bad language, no threats or anything - they just flat out refuse to move. What do you do? I would call the non-emergency police number and explain the situation and ask for advice. But if they literally will not move, sure, get the police to remove them. Because if you try to force them, you open yourself up to be sued for assault at a minimum, possibly getting injured in a fight at worse. Generally, I try to figure out why they refuse to move. People usually have a reason for behaving a certain way. Once you find that reason, it's possible to open a dialogue and strive to convince your point across. If they flat out refuse everything and you cannot even get into a contact with them, then health care professionals might be the best option to call in - not the police? Of course in a school setting that might not be a viable option. But if what you said previously was true, and other teachers were invited in, why did they fail to convince her to leave? Did they offer her an option to have her point heard and considered outside the classroom, possibly suggesting mediation in the issue? Why did she not consider other teachers as authority figures? So many things seem wrong here. Not even the scandanavian countries have a healthcare system that has emergency psychologists ready to dispatch to people who are grumpy lol. And this is a school - if two kids are disrupting the class, generally That's fairly standard, I think? But if they're disrupting the class and literally wont budge or even indicate they can hear you If it's that much of a mental health issue, you can't do that in front of the entire class - there's privacy stuff to consider. I think the school acted properly, just the police guy overreacted. Yeah, you would be so surprised No, I agree with you on principle - you can't just expect a psychologist to run over and save the situation, nor can you wait. And what would you use a psychologist for anyway, if it's just an disagreement with perfectly healthy year old? I'm just questioning why on earth did the teacher and the vice principal not have the skills to defuse the situation and have her move? Poor standards of education or lacking training? I mean, it's not like uncooperative students are uncommon. To me, it just tells that there was something really wrong here that a police officer was called to solve a nonviolent? And if it took three hours of holding all pupils in class to start building such an environment, I would not consider it time wasted. Why did she not move? Is it ok to ask that too, why a student felt compelled seemingly to cause trouble, disrupt the education of their classmates, ignore the teacher, ignore the officer, etc? I know, asking that is 'victim blaming', but IMO the victims here are the teacher doing a thankless job and having this on top of it, and the class for having their education disrupted for this gal? It's a question I ask in almost every one of these One pending lawsuit against 10 people for a student being expelled doesn't seem violent or related or specific. Numerous commendations and praise. What this will come down to, I think, is the appearance of excessive force vs. When he pulls her, the desk moves too which makes it look all the more violent because she, not he, is holding on to it and will not let go. Is there a way for one male office to remove this student that wouldn't look excessive, if the student simply refuses to let go or get up and resists the attempt? She ignores you. Like how then? Her hands are apart, she cannot be cuffed unless you move her. And she refuses to move. Your next move is This is exactly what the FBI will be looking at by the way, was this action to remove her appropriate or were other, lesser, actions available? Do you understand? Over what? You really want to ruin the rest of your life for them? I place a cuff on one hand that she isn't moving, then I move round the table and take her other hand. I'm stronger than her, so I will win out if she resists. I then put both behind her back and she's now cuffed. I then remove her from the desk. If I was his size, I mean. He could do that with one hand, he could lift her up with a hand. I have no idea. I don't know what happened before. I do know flipping over the entire desk and risking her life - she could have had her neck broken!!! Maybe it would come to what happened - I dunno. But he went straight from talking to her to He seems to have missed about 5 steps. In reality this situation doesn't exist i guess there are political protests where people are willing to die before moving. Sure you might have to try a bunch of different approaches, the main of which by the way is patience :lol:, but once a person feels they've made their point they'll move. There's never a reason to violently move someone unless they're at risk or being violent themselves. Not sure how they run shit down there, but at least here in my district, when you have been told to leave the premise and refuse you are actually committing an act of criminal trespassing. I remember back in the day a kid got removed from class by the police. The principal came in, told the kid he was being expelled from the school,he was no longer permitted on school property, and that refusing to leave would be an act of trespassing. In reality this situation doesn't exis normally no, but the girl in question apparently did just So fine, she sits there cuffed, since you've failed to stop matters escalating to that level. I wasn't aware you'd cuffed so many small school-age girls to be a subject matter expert on the activity Malc. Legal and B. I'm confidant that if it's not justified or legal, the FBI will find so. But if it is legal, whelp I just don't know where we get this crazy idea that you have no empathy, it's a right old mystery. Perhaps we should call in Sherlock Holmes. I'm curious what you believe I should have empathy for in this case, exactly. Empathy: capacity to understand or feel what another person is experiencing from within the other person's frame of reference You're right, I have no empathy in this case because I cannot put myself in a position where what she did, refusing the teacher, refusing the officer, is something I can comprehend, justify, or understand in any form. I cannot feel her pain, because I cannot put myself in a position mentally to understand WHY she would HAVE to feel that pain given the easy other options available to her. Had she been simply sitting there, being good, following the rules, and a cop busts in, jacks her up, and rips her across the room, I'd be right there with you. I don't have empathy for someone who breaks all the rules, refuses to do as everyone else in schools does, refuses all the orders of the various authority folks, and ends up in a spot like this. And before you go where you always go, it's not because shes a she, not because she's black, yada yada. White, middle class boy, my posts are the exact same. It's because she didn't do what was asked not unreasonable here ffs and caused the entire situation. Again, the people I have empathy for are the Teacher, the other Students, and to a small degree the Officer, who shouldn't have been in that spot to start. So tell us Malc, describe your empathy for her for us, so I can understand. What part of her feelings are you understanding of here? I think we've landed squarely on the reason why you end up disagreeing with many of us here. If you trust my professional opinion, then I can promise you that people don't generally act out on a whim. The girl most certainly has, in her mind, a very valid reason for behaving the way she did, and asking her what that reason is generally is the proper path of solving that conflict. If you consider yourself wronged, you, too, most likely will speak out and let others know that you believe you have been treated unfairly; if you are a year old, you don't really have much capability to inhibit your moods and actions, have poorer skills to express your feelings in general, and so on. As a sum, all these issues easily lead to conflict in adolescence. This is not to say that adolescents should not be responsible for their actions. Adults should teach adolescents to become responsible. However, if you use a threat of violence to teach responsible behavior, you get obedience and if there is no threat of violence, then the reason to act responsibly is diminished. If you instead teach responsibility through understanding and compassion, then you instill an inner motive to act responsibly because not doing so will be harmful to others. Moreover, of course you are unable to put yourself in a position where you'd understand why she had to act the way they did - nobody can do that on the basis of the information we have. The only way to do so is to ask her, hear her out, and understand her motives. Like I said, unless one is in a psychosis or a sociopath, humans usually have reasons for their actions. But if I may guess what is causing us to see you as an unsympathetic is the fact that many of us consider that in her mind, there is a valid reason for her behavior, even though we do not understand it yet, and her actions are not solely due to stupidity or malice. We've all been angry, she's obviously angry too, and in this case, it manifested in a really unfortunate way. But, calling an officer to solve the conflict was still, in my opinion, wrong. I think all the responses up till the removal were perfectly justified. She can have whatever reasons she wants, she's being intentionally rude and disruptive and the rules are straight on people who behave like that. As for the removal itself, at first glance it certainly looks excessive. I suspect the officer will claim he acted as he trained, because as he tries to lift her she struggles back to stay in her seat. That's the moment he starts moving faster and tips her over, and that's exactly what they get taught to do with any suspect who resists restrained though in this context that response is excessive. To me he looks almost annoyed that he has to do this, and when she resists he doesn't stop himself from doing what he got taught to do: you take the suspect to the ground and restrain them. Illegal no, excessive force probably. I think he loses his cool, and they get trained to not do that either. Her demeanor is appalling, and being a victim of anything does not absolve you of responsibility for your own actions. Where I'm from, the police is expected to use their judgement, and act accordingly. No hiding behind 'training', or 'I always do it like this'. But then again, the US is exceptional in this regard. The police seems to be incapable of showing good judgement, though it does act accordingly Are you on drugs? If you want to do some US bashing don't strawman my post into something I never claimed. Training is likely to be his excuse, and yet he'll still get excessive because it was excessive she's not your usual suspect. But hey, I get a feeling you just want to bitch about the boogeyman US and leave rational stuff to the adults. I also expect that given the recent bloody history US schools operate under a completely different set of rules compared to the rest of the developed world. I remember a incident back in the 80s where a student at my school having psychological issues stabbed another student with a compass and locked themselves in a staffroom. The school did nothing beyond sending the wounded kid to the nurse and calling both kids parents. No police were involved and no one sued anyone. These days I suspect that any school would go into full panic mode just from the possible legal and financial consequences of a student hurting another student. Doesn't mean that 16 year olds need to get body slammed or tazed just for being shits. But I can understand why US schools would be on edge. The School Officer was fired. I don't think you can stab with a compass, at most you can pinch with it Unless it's really fuckin' big? I asked him what the heck he was doing 'you're an english bastard' then told the teacher. The teacher shouted at him and nothing further was said. We actually made up afterwards, despite him being a racially inferior scot. I had a friend called Tom who threw a compass at me in a year 8 geography lesson and it stuck in my arm at a 45 degree angle. There was a perfectly circular spot of blood on my shirt. I didn't actually hurt that much though which was odd. He was sitting right next to me, it was pretty funny how it was just sticking there though. We used to nick thread from the textiles classrooms and put it paper planes so thread would end up draped all over class rooms. There was this kid from singapore who could make sharp as fuck paper darts but he never told anyone else how he did it. The weirdest thing in all of this for me is the fact that apparently brits learn how to use a compass in primary school Poasting from my couch. I got stabbed with a pencil in High School by a bud of mine. Broke off the tip, I still have a blue dot on my arm. No police were involved. I once threw a Dart into the grass and it bounced right off and went straight into another kids shin. All the way. He wasn't happy. The weirdest thing in all of this for me is the fact that apparently brits learn how to use a compass in primary school Poasting from my couch how the fuck else do you draw a circle. Oh wait. LooooL That explains a lot. Here I, was wondering what weird kind of spikey compass contraption you're using. After someone mentioned geography. But hey learning to navigate is an essential skill. Ye go boys! You silly people having the same term for completely different things. Got stabbed in the hand by a pencil as a little one. Like a tattoo, forever black-dot. With, either that or your native pencils need pacified. Some kid in secondary school broke a pair of scissors and sliced the back of my hand with them at the back of class one day because i made fun of him for 'being able to write but not read'. I used his coursework due to hand in that day wipe up the blood and didn't say a thing. The odd teacher would still throw chalkboard erasers at us. I have a burn on my right hand from where my best friend at the time slashed at it with a bit of metal that he'd salvaged from metalwork and heated in a bunsen burner until it was red hot. He was a dick. What you want is three metre rulers taped together with duct tape so that the whole thing is 2 metres tall and a big old bit of string. It makes a pretty decent longbow. The weirdest thing in all of this for me is the fact that apparently brits learn how to use a compass in primary school Poasting from my couch how the fuck else do you draw a circle Da Vinci drew a perfect circle freehand, so fuck those cheating tools. This is a much better thread now though. One of my best mates kicked my chair out while i was sitting down, smashed my two front teeth in half on the edge of the desk. Supporting the family business. Good kid. We call compasses and compasses compasses. Still had this in the s tbh. ISTR some graphic circulating about recently. White people were 'slightly' more likely than black people to get shot in all encounters with police. I'd like to say I'll try and dig it up but in the end I won't bother. White people were 'slightly' more likely than black people in all encounters with police. Slightly more likely what? All rights reserved.
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