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Zoophilia Man Sex with Pony Mare.png
Zoophilia Stallion Oral Sex from Woman.png
Zoophilia Man Oral Sex from Cow.png

^ It should be noted that the routine brucellosis test for humans does not test for Brucella canis , only Brucella abortus .

^ Bestiality with sensitization and anaphylactic reaction. Obstet Gynecol 1973;42:138-40. (Holden TE, Sherline DM.)

^ Bodil Joensen commented in a 1980s interview that "I was afraid to let other women do the same with the [stallion] as I. It requires a special technique. When they cum, their glans swells up, and it can split your vagina. I have had some stitches once I didn't pull it out in time"

^ Pinyan was highly experienced at this activity. Sources cited in that article add: "The prosecutor's office says no animal cruelty charges were filed [against the other man present] because there was no evidence of injury to the horses." [10] [11]



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Archived November 25 2006
Updated December 15 2006 (Line art and zoonoses)


This archive covers discussion relating to: - a question of whether Leda and the Swan should be described as "rape", use of the word "zoophilia" before Krafft-Ebbing, the temporary split of the article into a zoophilia article and a bestiality article (later reversed following discussion), another couple of socks of a blocked POV vandal, links to AnimalDB.com, size of zoophile/furry overlap, long article tag removal, sources and discussion of zoophilia and Islam, copvio line art tracings,

Subseqently added also: discussion/dispute over zoonoses and health resulting in creation of Zoophilia and health .

I think it's important to change the wording around Zeus and his so called "seduction" of Lena and Europa: which is more accurately described as rape.
I really believe it's important not to play down and consequently normalise the sexual violence against women that permeates the classics.
However, I'm not knowledgeable enough to pin down the exact terminology and events - can anyone help out?

Was "zoophilia" another artificial splice of Greek by Krafft-Ebing, or is it derived from something actually encountered in Ancient Greek? JayW 00:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as zoosexuality got its own article (though I must say that the difference between zoophilia and zoosexuality isn't made very clear), perhaps bestiality could also be given its own article since I'd consider the difference between bestiality and zoophilia a lot bigger than the difference between zoosexuality and zoophilia. Sections like legal status, health and safety, mythology, media discussion and pornography would all fit in this bestiality article, so little new content would have to be written. It'd also reduce the length of the zoophilia article, as it's a bit lengthy at the moment. BabyNuke 13:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Read the article on zoosexuality. It is notable in its own right, and defined within sexology, as distinct and separate from a general article on "people and animals". Google hits are (in this case) not a good uindication of notability. You don't need to "guess" how they differ. Read that article and you'll see. If it's still not clear, how the two articles differ, say so?

That said, if the subject didn't have such conflicting definitions, I would broadly say that much of zoophilia would belong in an artiicle titled "zoosexuality". But as it is, zoophilia is the more recognised term for much of it, and it helps to have the article on the orientation kept "clean" and just about the orientation as an orientation". I think just leave it as it is, and focus on cleanup and missing areas in the field, is best, for now. FT2 ( Talk ) 21:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

First, just to clarify, the main "zoophilia" article is being split out into sub articles. That became clear from 3rd party editors on the Featured Article review. So the main article will be simplified a lot over the next while. That will help in part, by allowing excessively long sections such as porn to be moved to separate articles and summarized instead. That will help a lot.

On the issue you're raising, it's not ideal, but given the range of terminology and the historical conflicts in usage I'm not sure we can change that. To take an analogy from another orientation, if there was any commonsense we'd have 3 articles, on 1/ homosexuality in psychology (re its classification as a sexual orientation), 2/ gay culture, lifestyle, legal, societal views, and related stuff (overview split out to subarticles), and 3/ anal sex (legality, consequences, safety etc). That would be sensible. But I just don't see Wikipedia having an article on "how to have sex with your animal", and we have a separate legal article, so the latter isn't likely to happen. (Also "bestiality" is seen as pejorative in the field and Wikipedia tries to avoid pejoratives where a more neutral accepted term exists). So the little that is said on the act itself is best folded into the general one on the lifestyle, people, views, etc. FT2 ( Talk ) 13:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, as you can see, I'm having a go at putting the section into that sort of format. Setting aside the actual choice of article name, it's obvious that whatever article discusses zoosexuality as a sexual orientation, is likely to be of a size and definition to need an article of its own, with a brief summary + link within the main article. That's the usual approach for articles covering a whole field: - subarticles covering identifiable major aspects, and a main article summarizing it all with links for more details to each.

Once that's done, I think we will broadly agree, one main article to cover it all, whatever its title may be. But that can't be done until the major chunks are farmed out, which is what's happening in the background, and which takes time. The reason it takes time is that when a subject such as "zoo and the law" becomes a separate article, at that point it must have its own balance and cover its own sub-areas. You can see this in zoo and the law, which covers issues such as how zoo laws come to exist, and their backgrounds, which was new material. So that's why it's a bit slow. But I think broadly that's a direction that's good, and when more of the bulk is moved to subarticles, then creating the main article (under whatever name) to cover it all, will be much easier.

As far as I'm aware, about 4 or 5 articles are being worked on in this way, as subarticles to the main article referencing them, as the Featured Article review suggested. The problem is that you can't fit the whole subject into one article, and nor (as I see it) should you try. A one article summary, yes. But subarticles will then be needed to expand on that. Thoughts? FT2 ( Talk ) 15:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Right now, it's a bit chaotic and vague, with a long page on zoophilia which contains some sections which do not really belong to it. Already, some new pages are in the works. So, here's my suggestion for the articles on all things zoophilia and bestiality related:

Little new content would have to be made and little content would be lost. It's largely a matter of improving the organisation. Some key changes here are that the terms zoophilia and zoosexuality will be used as synonyms as that is how they are most commonly seen. The term bestiality is used in those cases where the actual sexual act is being discussed, and thus something like arguments for / against sex with animals would fall under bestiality and not zoophilia. Also note that I did not include animal pornography as a seperate article but included it with bestiality, though if needed this can be kept as a seperate article as it is being worked on now. All related pages could have a little box somewhere showing the other related pages. Feedback is welcome, I think this would greatly improve the situation on zoophilia / bestiality. BabyNuke 19:19, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The difference would roughly be the same as a difference between two articles called "gay" and "homosexuality", or between "homosexuality (as lifestyle)" and homosexuality (as orientation)".

Basically zoosexuality has a technical meaning, as an orientation, and within that are questions such as, What is an orientation? What research is there each way on it? Why is it classified as an orientation? Thats very different from an overview of zoosexuality as a lifestyle . it's worth looking at the article on Pragmatism for a similar situation, where a word with one commonly-understood meaning actually is a technical term in philosophy, and the article on the general or popular meaning is a separate philosophical term in everyday use. FT2 ( Talk | email ) 10:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I wanted to give it some time, for two reasons, first because its a good way to see others reactions, and ones own over time, second because I've edited a lot on this article and its important not to act as if it is in any way WP:OWNed . So I've stayed away from editing in this area, to see how it goes, see what others say and edit, focus on other areas (mainly the Wikipedia: workspace), and come back to it. I have a few thoughts, but I'm clearer now on them.

We probably agree that one way or another we need to split off sizable chunks of content from the main article. So I see the main issue as being what main articles should exist (zoophilia, zoosexuality, bestiality, sex acts with animals, ...), and what content should be in each .

Basically, my feeling is that yes we need to split the article out. But not by fracturing it into two. I don't think a split into "zoosexual acts" (bestiality, sex acts, legal, health, porn) v. "zoosexual lifestyle" (lifestyle, societal views, myth, religion) is going to work well, and instead we ought to consider forking off carefully chosen sections that are well defined, such as "zoosexuality and law", "zoosexuality and religion", "zoosexuality and health", etc instead.

This will make the main article more concise and give focussed sub-articles their own space. It leaves one master article with summary sections, not two parallel master articles. The only question then will be what name to give that article.

I don't think a separate "bestiality" lead article is going to be best, long term, even though its one way to keep it shorter, and reading it, I don't really think the split has worked that well in practice. For that reason I'd suggest we re-merge bestiality back -- but then shorten it by forking out substantial sections which we agree by consensus are worth their own article, keeping the main article shorter. In other words, individual sections get forked if theres consensus, but the article as a whole (which overviews the entire field whatever name it's given) doesnt split into 2 along an acts/lifestyle line.

I will come back to the question of "What titles should articles have" and "What do we do with the zoosexuality article" later if needed, because that's an important part of the problem, but first, this question:

There are two approaches, keep one master article for all aspects of zoosexuality/zoophilia/bestiality and fork out substantial content areas, or fork the article itself into lifestyle v. sexual acts. I'd like to hear thoughts on that before going further. FT2 ( Talk | email ) 08:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

hello people. perhaps its not my place but I'd say that a single article would probably give a easier hierarchy to work with. i don't see the difference really. In the toon world, bestiality is a more exciting word because its more naughty but I dont think thats a good reason to split articles. also can somebody send me the ref for the opening (incorrect to say bestiality is synonymous with zoophilia). I'm going to write a piece on this for a toon article. Toondreams 08:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I can understand where Babynuke comes from. Originally I was in favor of having two separate articles, one for bestiality and then another for zoophiles. It makes sense, keeping the definition and explanation between zoophilia and bestiality in separate articles. If I was in charge of organizing the article from the beginning, that is how I would have originally done it.

However, there are some problems with that method and conflicts that would arise with what we already currently have. Right now what we have is one big umbrella topic where the others merge out of. As far as the flow of information goes, this seems very practical and much easier to follow as opposed to two separate articles where a user would have to search for (or not even know about) the information in the other article. I don’t think the article being too technical is going to be a problem at the level it is as long as it is comprehendible. There are many other articles in wikipedia that deal with complex and sophisticated math and science issues that many of use might not be able to understand just from reading the articles (and that hasn’t been an issue as long as those articles were accurate.)

Zoophilia and bestiality may not be the same thing (as baby nuke pointed out in the definition) but I don’t think that automatically warrants the division of this information on the same topic to be divided and split up under two definitions. I think there is a way we can address BabyNukes concern without having to massively change the format of the articles. This article is more of a general topic of interspecies sex and if necessary you could have little sections specifically on the various definitions (but I thought it was already addressed well in the article.)

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I see where BabyNuke comes from but I think it would be better to improve on the direction that the article is already going in. It reflects the same method that is already the standard that many other articles are using in wikipedia.-- Steele the Wolf 05:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The user concerned has caused serious POV damage to other articles, including forged cites, removal of valid facts, attacking of other editors as "biased", and imposition of own preferred POV via selective cites, often non-notable.

His talk page entries, as on the other article, are mostly intended to sway POV on the article and contain many personal attacks; I've archived them at /Archive17 if needed.

FT2 ( Talk | email ) 18:14, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone recently removed the link to AnimalDB.com I added. I would like to put it back on the page but I will wait pending the result of a discussion I would like to see about this subject.
Someone reverted my external link addition (AnimalDB.com) to the Zoophilia article. The first reason given by the reverter was that the contribution to the page would be questionable. I beg to differ. AnimalDb.com is a searchable database containing information on bestiality publications such as movies, magazines, books and websites. The zoophilia article on wikipedia is, among more, about bestiality. Several (or possibly all) persons and movies named in the pornography section are also in the database. The database is the largest in his kind.
The second argument given, by the reverter, for removing the link was that the database possibly has illegal content for some countries. I believe this fact itself is correct in that some of the websites content might be illegal in some countries, because the database contains cover images for the movies and magazines. But again I have a different opinion about this being a reason for not mentioning the link in the wikipedia article. A lot ot the other sources and external links on this articles page do also contain the same kind of material. If you think this argument is valid then you should remove al those other links also (and not just in this article but throughout wikipedia on all subjects that might be illegal in some countries). I think adding a warning behind the link should be enough. Ik.pas.aan 18:45, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a minor detail, but an important one nonetheless. It wouldn't be correct to say that 5% of furries are zoophiles. Many of them claim to have practiced zoophilia at some point in their lives, and even more do not consider it taboo. The sentence quoted below is most definately unfounded and should be removed. (discuss)

"The size of this group is not known, although an oft-cited figure is 5% of furries, which is not dissimilar to typical estimates of the percentage within the population generally."
03:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.164.93.193 ( talk • contribs ) .


Anecdotal evidence of how the zoo/furry overlap works comes from 2 main sources:

One assumes on such posts, those with a specific interest are more likely to post a comment. So it is likely that those posting are not representative of furries as a whole, but more tend to represent those with some specific interest in the topic.

Taken together these tend to support (for me) that most furries are not zoophiles and those who are, were before discovering the furry community, which is why I haven't much challenged the point. I wouldn't be surprised (personally) to find a higher proportion than in "everyday society" but that's not what the anecdotal word says (as best I can tell). I'm not sure what one can say in an encyclopedia except that anecdotally this is what's said. There just aren't any decent sources to draw on other than "anecdotal evidence", so that is the source cited. If there is something thats more, it would be useful to know. FT2 ( Talk | email ) 09:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

One question -- is there a source for the "many claim"? Or an indication of the proportion, to show that its a larger proportion and not just that they are more open talking about it (or other confounds)? That would help. FT2 ( Talk | email ) 09:28, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I strongly believe that this link should not be added. It is nothing more than an ad site to purchase animal porn, and has nothing of educational substance to offer. zooskool is an excellent site because, while it does offer porn, it also offers valuable information about why zoo's are interested in the zoo lifestyle. Please do not readd this link.

I've removed this tag. The article body itself is well within the bounds of WP:SIZE , because its very specific that it's the main body of text, and readibility concerns that are at stake. A rough breakdown of article length is as follows:

According to WP:SIZE the long article warning is not for technical purposes, but for stylistic (readability) reasons. Stylistically it's the main text (excluding reference informa
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