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‘Alice in Wonderland: An X-Rated Musical Fantasy ’ is one of the best-known adult films of the golden age in New York.
It was released in 1976, enjoyed international distribution, and was listed in Variety’s top grossing films for the year.
It’s a unique, colorful, inventive, entertaining and sexy feature – featuring a Playboy model in the leading role, well known character actors, and a familiar list of New York porn regulars.
But it also remains one of the strangest, and perhaps least understood, of the 1970s films too.
– What is the truth behind the various R-rated, X-rated and XXX-rated versions that have appeared over the years?
– What was Bill Osco ’s involvement, and where did all the huge profits disappear to?
– Why was a West Cost production filmed on the East Coast?
– How was a children’s story made into a musical, porn film?
– And is that really the founder of the ‘ Juicy Couture ’ brand of clothing who appears in a prominent role?
The Rialto Report looks for answers, and speaks to four people:
Jason Williams was the co-producer and production manager of ‘Alice in Wonderland’. He also played the part of the White Knight.
Kristine DeBell was the film’s star.
Juliet Graham played the Queen of Hearts.
Larry Gelman played the White Rabbit.
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‘Alice in Wonderland’ – Cast and crew:
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How did you get involved in ‘Alice in Wonderland’?
Jason Williams: In reality, ‘Alice in Wonderland’ was my movie, not Bill Osco’s.
I’d known Bill Osco for a few years, and I’d starred in the movie ‘ Flesh Gordon ’ (1974) that he’d made with Howard Ziehm .
Jason Williams (center) as ‘Flesh Gordon’ (1974)
What was your understanding of the relationship between Osco and Ziehm?
Jason Williams: Ziehm and Osco had worked in an adult bookstore in Los Angeles and they’d made two of the very first hardcore films, ‘ The Virgin Runaway ’ (1970) and ‘ Mona ’ (1970).
Ziehm was the director, cameraman… he did everything. He went to MIT so he was kind of smart. Howard would make the movies, and then Osco would fly to New York, Chicago, Miami, Dallas, Philadelphia, all the major cities with theaters that were showing pornography, and he would sell a print to a theater owner for a flat amount and that was it.
The theater owner would then run that movie and make as much money as he possibly could with it. There was no percentage or anything. They could run it until those sprocket holes wouldn’t run in a projector anymore.
So you got to know them when you worked with them on ‘Flesh Gordon’?
Jason Williams: Yes, they sold ‘Mona’ to Sherpix and that’s the money they used to make Flesh Gordon.
After that Howard continued to make movies, but he went up to Frisco because there was less heat from the authorities up there. It was a more liberal place than Los Angeles at the time.
They had some acting parts that were not porno that I did in those films. You know, like a pimp, a preacher, and so on, so I played those straight parts. While I was doing that, I was around enough to see what Howard was doing, see his technique, and see how to make these movies.
Then Howard had a falling out with Bill and they split up.
What happened when Howard and Bill split?
Jason Williams: Bill had all these great connections, he knew all these theater chains that were buying adult films – and there weren’t a lot of people making movies at that time. So I said to Bill, “I can take over and start making these movies, and you can sell them.” So I made several movies, a couple in Hawaii and then three or four more in Los Angeles.
Do you remember any of the names of these films?
Jason Williams: Yeah. One was originally called ‘Blue Hawaii’. They changed the name to ‘Hawaii Shuffle’ or ‘Hawaii Hustle’ or something like that.
Do you mean ‘ Honolulu Hustle ’ (1974)?
Jason Williams: ‘Honolulu Hustle’! That was it.
The credited director was ‘ Lee Betts ’ so that was you?
Jason Williams: Those two pictures in Hawaii were financed by a theater owner in Cleveland who Bill had met. He was a black guy, and he put up fifteen grand or something like that, and we made both of them for that amount.
Jason Williams: When we came back to Los Angeles, I took one of the movies to the lab, and a few days later I saw an ad for a newly released movie called ‘Our Ms. Brooke’ or ‘Ms. Brookes’ or something like that. I thought, “Jesus, that’s weird” because the girl’s name in my movie was Ms. Brooke. So I went and saw it and it was my movie! I couldn’t believe it. One of the movies I’d made had been released in a theater here in town before I could even get the print… there was somebody in the lab that stole the print and duped it. They got it into a theater here in town before I even saw the final answer print!
My title for that movie was ‘Final Test’. It was about a girl in Hawaii who was doing something at the University of Hawaii.
So I went to that theater and said, “Jesus! Where did you get this movie?”
I said, “Well because it’s my movie!”
He lifts his shirt up and he’s got a gun in his holster, and he said, “It’s not your movie.”
I said, “Okay.” I went back to Osco, I said, “I am done. I’m not making any more of these cheap movies. We gotta do something else. Why don’t we make an X-rated musical? It could be like Flesh Gordon.”
On the face of it, ‘Alice in Wonderland’ is a strange choice for an adult film; it’s a children’s fairy tale, it’s a musical, and it’s a porn film. What made you think that this would be a good idea?
Jason Williams: I thought it would be a good idea to have the polarity, the contrast. Contrast is interesting and gets your attention. Our job is to entertain, and any time we have a person’s attention we’re entertaining.
Bill liked the idea so we got this guy, Bucky Searles , to write it.
Bucky Searles, as Humpty Dumpty in ‘Alice in Wonderland’
What did you know about Bucky Searles?
Jason Williams: He was a comic writer and comedian. Bill was dating Mitzi Shore , who owned The Comedy Store in Los Angeles. We were hanging out and we saw Bucky there.
Bill had known Bucky for a few years because Bucky also wrote the script for ‘Mona’ (1970).
Jason Williams: Yes, that’s right, and we also gave Bucky the part of Humpty Dumpty in ‘Alice in Wonderland’.
Bucky wrote ‘Alice in Wonderland’; he did the script and also this great, fun musical score which was really the heart of the film. It had a lot of cute songs in it. He was talented.
Where did the money for the shoot come from?
Jason Williams: Bill had this connection in Phoenix, a lawyer by the name of Hirsch. Hirsch had seen ‘Flesh Gordon’ and was keen to work on a film with us.
Bill said, “How much is it going to cost?” I drew up a budget and said it would cost about a hundred grand.
Hirsch said, “Okay. I’ll put up a hundred grand.”
So you set up a production company for the film?
Jason Williams: Hirsch set up a production company called ‘Cruiser Productions’, named after the nickname of the guy who acted as a liaison between himself in Phoenix and Bill and myself. We called this guy ‘The Cruiser’ and so ‘T. Cruiser’ was also listed as the executive producer.
Why did you decide to leave Los Angeles and go to New York to make the film?
Jason Williams: I said, “There’s no way we can make this in Los Angeles, there’s too much heat. There’s a lot of talent in New York, and a lot less risk. I’ll go to New York and get this going.” That was in early summer 1975.
I went up to New York, and rented a little loft near 42nd St. I ran an ad in the Village Voice that said: “X-rated musical, ‘Alice in Wonderland’: You must be able to sing and dance”, and people started showing up straight away.
I held casting sessions, and picked three or four people for each character to come back for a second audition with the film’s director.
I also came across Dorothy Palmer’s agency and she sent some people over too. I think that’s how we found Kristine DeBell for the part of ‘Alice’.
Kristine DeBell: Dorothy Palmer’s name rings a bell. It sounds funny but I have very little memory. I have friends now who have to fill in my memory for me. I’m honestly the worst person to interview. I found out much later in life that I have what’s called ‘selective memory’. When I grew up, my father was a rage-aholic. He’d get angry. So whenever I’m in a situation where I get excited or stressed, I realize I remember very little.
Born in Chatham, NY, twenty year old Kristine DeBell had begun her career as a fashion model with Macy’s.
Kristine DeBell, early modeling pictures
Kristine DeBell: When I graduated from high school, I spent a year at Berkeley, studying fashion merchandising and then ended up in New York. That would be around 1974.
I started modeling at Macy’s. I was really just a tall, skinny kid. I wasn’t popular at all. All the girls that were very shapely back then were much more popular than me. I finally remember seeing a picture of Twiggy and saying, “That’s what I’m supposed to be doing.” When you’re size 8 and very thin and have no breasts, it wasn’t easy.
Macy’s had a modeling program, and I joined it. They’d have young girls model the clothing at Macy’s. It was a whole program. I did that as a young teen. I also did runway modeling.
One day I walked into Eileen Ford ‘s office in New York. The receptionist looked at me and said, “Do you work here?” I said, “No.” She said, “Would you like to?” I said, “Yes!” And I went into Eileen Ford’s office right then and met her!
Who was going to direct ‘Alice in Wonderland’?
Jason Williams: I guess I was going to be the director originally. I’d directed these other films for Bill and I. However as the workload increased, I told Bill, “Look, I can’t direct this. I’m too busy. I’ve got all this production stuff going on. I still have to go find the locations.”
How did you come up with the choice of Bud Townsend for the director?
Jason Williams: Bud was a high-quality commercial director. I’d been going with an actress by the name of Tiffany Bolling who’d done a commercial with him. She became friends with Bud and his wife Patty , so I met Bud through her and we used to go over to their house. Then, I read for the lead in a movie that he did called ‘ Terror House ’ (1972) (aka ‘Terror at the Red Wolf Inn’).
Bud Townsend’s ‘Terror at Red Wolf Inn’ (1972)
What made you think he’d be suitable to direct ‘Alice in Wonderland’?
Jason Williams: I thought he was a really good director and had talent so I knew we were going to get something that looked good. He’d never directed a sex film before – in fact he’d one really directed that one feature film – but I knew he was kind of into erotica so that suited the material.
Plus Bud and his wife Patty were like a directing team. She was always his script girl, so they were tight and worked well together. Everyone knew Patty as ‘Booby’ because she had no boobs.
They were quite a bit older than the rest of us as they were in their late 50s when we made the film.
How was Bud involved in the casting process?
Jason Williams: Bud and Booby came to New York with Bill, and I arranged a call back for the top three choices that I had made for each of the characters. I just gave them my list and I said, “Here are the choices for Alice, here are the choices for the Mad Hatter” and so on.
Juliet Graham: I remember auditioning for the lead role of Alice at first because they liked my long blond hair. I don’t think I was interested enough to push for the lead though. I think they made the right choice with Kristine.
I don’t remember auditioning for the role of the Queen of Hearts at all (below). They just offered me that part instead, so I accepted it.
Did you know much about the New York actors you hired?
Jason Williams: No, I didn’t know any of them. I knew that many were regulars on the porn scene, but I didn’t know them. They just showed up at my loft to audition.
We also hired a few character actors. For example Larry Gelman was a fairly well known actor in L.A. He was a friend of Bucky Searles so we got him for the part of the White Rabbit.
Larry Gelman: Bucky Searles took me to a diner on Fairfax and told me about the film. He offered me the part of the White Rabbit. It sounded fun so I agreed with two conditions. Firstly I asked for round trip tickets to New York for my wife, our two children and me. And secondly, I asked that I would keep my clothes on for the entire production. Bucky agree to both requests. Especially the second!
Did you audition their dancing ability?
Jason Williams: Yeah. Several of the porn actors had a dance background – such as Nancy Dare and Terri Hall . They had to sing and dance a little bit. I forget how that worked. There was a piano in the audition room. I don’t know if we had a piano player or some kind of scratch track for them to perform to.
They had to be able to dance, but singing wasn’t so important as we were going to record the music afterwards with proper singers.
Kristine DeBell: When I auditioned for the film, obviously they didn’t think that they were going to find a ‘porno star’ who could sing. The funny thing was I started out in musical theater, and I’d sang for years.
I studied voice and ended up auditioning for ‘The Sound of Music’ in my high school production when I was 14, and got the role. Then I did Summer stock with this theater company for four seasons every summer throughout high school. So I had a lot of experience singing and dancing.
You were putting all the production together yourself. Did you have any one helping you?
Jason Williams: I was seeing a girl called Gela Nash at the time. She was kind of my girlfriend. We dated a little while in L.A. She was a dancer. She was a jack of all trades and kind of an assistant to me. She did everything. She helped out with the wardrobe too.
In fact she ended up playing a part in the movie as one of the dancers. She’s actually the girl who plays on the Knight. She kind of sings a bit where she’s on the black guy and she lifts up her dress: “What’s a Girl like you doing on a Knight like this?”
She didn’t want to do any nudity but she was good spirited about getting involved. She was just real cute and fun. She used the name ‘ Gila Havana ’ (below).
Jason Williams: No – and actually she ended up starting the ‘Juicy Couture’ clothing line years later! She made a fortune as the owner of that empire. And she married Duran Duran’s John Taylor. I wish I had her money…
The big house and garden location was very striking – where did you shoot the film?
Jason Williams: ‘The Cruiser’ (the guy who was looking out for how we spent Hirsch’s money) was tight with a real estate guy in Tannersville in upstate New York called Jeff Prince who got us all the locations.
Jeff Prince took me around to various places up there. We used four or five different sets, but mostly we shot on this country estate; it was a place that had some great architecture and some land that we could work on.
‘Alice in Wonderland’ was filmed mainly in Palenville, NY, on an old family estate that is locally known as ‘White’s Castle’. The property is currently the home of Jed Root , founder of Jed Root, Inc. , one of the leading artist management agencies in the world.
Externals were also shot ‘guerrilla style’ at Olana State Historic Site , a National Historic Landmark that had been the home of Frederic Edwin Church (1826–1900), one of the major figures in the Hudson River School of landscape painting.
Where did everyone involved in the shoot stay?
Jason Williams: Jeff, the real estate guy, got us a place nearby to stay so I rented it out for the duration of the shoot. All the cast and crew lived in that one big place. It was a real old place and had about 20 rooms. I hired a chef that cooked all the meals for them so it was like a boarding house situation.
Everybody stayed in there except for me and Bill, and Kristine and Gela. We all stayed at the actual house where we were filming. It was a lot of fun.
Kristine DeBell: One of the things I remember most clearly was this disgusting old house that they rented for us to stay in. There were crabs in the couch or something. We all got crabs!
What do you remember about the film’s star, Kristine DeBell?
Juliet Graham: Kristine was very sweet. And young. She might have only been two or three years younger than me, but she seemed a very young 20 or 21 to me. She had that innocence that they were looking for.
She didn’t really have to act or project too much, just be incredulous and open. But she was great at that.
(from left to right) John Lawrence, Kristine DeBell, Juliet Graham
Larry Gelman: Kristine was a sweet, innocent, and serious girl. She was like me and just wanted to make a proper film. She was very earnest did a really great job.
Kristine DeBell: Was I rebellious? Was I headstrong? Absolutely. Why else would I have done that type of film? You know what I mean?! I was very rebellious at that time.
I was drinking quite a bit. I joke now that if you were a friend of mine, I’d thrown up on you at some point.
I didn’t even start drinking until I was 16 to 17 I think, and it didn’t get to be a problem until I started doing drugs when I was in California – and cocaine was introduced. Then, by 26 I was done… I had a very short drinking and drug career. My wild years were short, and I actually have 33 years of sobriety now.
Were you at all uncomfortable with the nudity?
Kristine DeBell: No. It’s funny but for some reason I was always very OK with being exactly what I was. It must’ve been the rebellious side of me because it didn’t bother me a bit. It’s like, “They’re paying me to stand there naked. I’m getting paid.”
Production still, with Kristine DeBell, Terri Hall
What do you remember about the other actors?
Juliet Graham: Alan Novak (right) played the Mad Hatter. His real name was Alan Coolidge. I knew him. He worked in some acting agent’s office in midtown in New York. I used to go in there and leave my pictures and hope that they would call me for something. He died of AIDS not too long after AIDS began.
He was trying to be a mainstream actor, and was a great character type. He could have had a lot of work being some kind of weird character like he was in this movie but it didn’t work out for him.
Tony and Sue Richards played Tweedledum and Tweedledee. They were everybody’s favorite couple. They were on the porno scene for a short while, and were both really nice. They really loved each other. They didn’t really like to do scenes with anybody else.
Jason Williams: The cast seemed to bond well. Most of them knew each other from the New York porn scene so it was like a trip away for them all.
Kristine DeBell: I didn’t know a soul. They seemed part of a different world.
Production still, with (from left to right) Terri Hall, Kristine DeBell, Nancy Dare
How did you hire the crew – people like the cinematographer, Joseph Bardo ?
Jason Williams: Joe Bardo was a local guy in Los Angeles that we knew.
Joseph Bardo was a cinematic jack of all trades, acting in films since the 1950s (he was one of the characters declaring “I’m Spartacus!” in the Kirk Douglas film ‘ Spartacus ’ (1960)), as well as directing, producing, and shooting a large number of films with a variety of aliases. A successful college football player in his youth, Joe had started out as one of Mae West’s ‘muscle men’ in her lounge act.
Jason Williams: Joe was friends with Bill. He was a big guy, an ex-football player. He drove to New York from the West Coast for the shoot in his van and he took all his equipment with him. He was going to put up the equipment and be the cameraman and provide some of the additional crew members
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