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Dr. Kate: Good evening Los Angeles. Welcome to Behind Closed Doors. Heard every Saturday at 6pm right here on Talk Radio 790 KABC. I’m Dr. Kate Balestrieri.
Dr. Kate: And we are the co-founders of Triune Therapy Group here in Los Angeles. Behind closed doors is a show about sex, relationships, mental health, addictions, staying healthy and related current events. And today we’ll be talking about all of those things; focusing specifically on a hot topic in today’s media: The Relationship between Sex, Money and Power. In a few minutes, we’ll be speaking with Debra Kaplan. She’s an esteemed therapist, an author of the book For Love and Money: Exploring Sexual and Financial Betrayal in Relationships. So if you have any questions about this topic, call us now at 800-222-5222. That’s 800-222 KABC.
Lauren: We wanted to start the segment today by addressing suicide as it’s recently come up in the media with the tragic loss of Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain. It just reminds us of the really profound pain that so many people live on a daily basis that often is cloaked by smiles. Many people have no idea that they are suffering.
Lauren: And these cases that you know, we’ve had an opportunity to see just how the immensity of the shame and how crippling that can be you know, preventing people from getting help and ultimately causing their death.
Dr. Kate: Absolutely. When I think about models like Kate Spade and Anthony Bourdain whose lives recently were lost to suicide, that’s just mind blowing. I mean they are extreme examples, an optimal examples of what you’re saying. These are people to whom the world looked up to and thought they had it all.
Dr. Kate: And unbeknownst to most of us, they were really suffering in really deep tragic ways.
Lauren: Right. And I think that goes on a lot. People don’t often don’t want to be a burden.
Lauren: And feel the need to maintain this image that everything is okay. There’s a lot of stigma around mental illness and depression and it can be a really complex set of issues.
Dr. Kate: It is. I mean even in the treatment rooms, a lot of my patients are afraid to talk about suicide for a lot of reasons, right? Sometimes they think “gosh! If I start talking about suicide, Dr. Kate is going to have me hospitalized.”
Dr. Kate: And that’s only the case in very extreme situations where there’s an immediate threat to their safety. But people are terrified to talk about suicide when in reality, it’s pretty common for most people to have suicidal thoughts or passively suicidal thoughts from time to time.
Lauren: Right. I get so many clients making that clear distinction like “I don’t want to live, I’m not telling you I’m suicidal, but I just don’t want to live.” I think that’s a common feeling of hopelessness that people feel when they feel overwhelmed with stress and anxiety, and just many of the issues people face today.
Dr. Kate: Absolutely. I mean life can be really hard sometimes and you know, we get wrapped up in the rat race of trying to succeed and get ahead. And often, you know, a lot of people get stuck in a hero complex and they don’t want to be a burden like you said. And they feel like the weight of the world is resting on their shoulders and it’s up to them to carry through for their family or for their employees. And we see a lot of high-powered, C-level executives really struggling with the pressures of trying to maintain this facade of having it all together, instead of getting help.
Lauren: Right. I love the phrase that I’ve heard that it’s a permanent solution for a temporary problem. And you know, usually what we’re going through passes— not always the case, but you just want to grab people and tell them to hang in there, but many people aren’t even sharing that they have a problem.
Lauren: I just thought that I’d share some statistics that I read according to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. Suicide is the tenth leading cause of death in the US.
Lauren: I think I read today that there was thirty-three thousand deaths per year by suicide.
Dr. Kate: Oh my gosh! That is so much more than I would have thought.
Lauren: Another thing we don’t think about is the survivors that are left. So for each person that commits suicide, there’s an average of six people that are their survivors, who then in turn suffer their own you know, traumatic grief or PTSD and then they become at risk for suicide as well.
Lauren: It often becomes an epidemic, which is something that we really need to be careful with.
Dr. Kate: Absolutely. Well, I think that probably explains why it’s costing the US sixty nine billion dollars annually to treat suicide.
Dr. Kate: And the after effects of it annually. That’s a staggering price tag.
Lauren: It is. And if you look at that as a mental health issue, I mean you know, with all the gun violence and things that are going on, you know homicidally and suicidality I just opposite ends of the coin. Right? Sides of the coin I guess. [laugh]
Lauren: But we really have some pretty severe mental health issues in our society and…
Lauren: It seems like people are not given the treatment they need.
Dr. Kate: Yeah. Well let’s talk about why they don’t. I mean it seems like if someone’s in pain, the natural progression would be to get help, but often people feel really stifled by their pain and I wonder you know, from your perspective Lauren what you think are some of the biggest impediments to people getting treatment when they are hurting so badly?
Lauren: Well, shame is huge; that’s a big one. Fear is another one. I have clients that come in for their weekly therapy and when you start talking about a higher level of care, which sometimes is being hospitalized, sometimes it’s going to a residential facility that might specialize in mental health or trauma, sometimes it’s just an IOP level of care which is an intensive outpatient. But there’s a lot of fear of the unknown and even though what they are experiencing seems like the depths of suffering, the solution is unknown and even though we think “well it could only be better.” It often involves digging underneath what’s causing them the pain that they often don’t want to face. And so fear really stands in the way.
Dr. Kate: I agree with that. And often, just the fear of the unknown is much scarier than a discomfort we’re already familiar with. And that’s a big reason why a lot of people don’t take steps forward to heal.
Lauren: Right. And hopelessness is a big part of depression. So, someone is struggling with hopelessness, they just don’t see any hope for the future so why bother. They’ve completely given up on the idea that there could be a solution or that there could be any progress.
Dr. Kate: Yeah. And at that point, a lot of people believe that their suicide would actually relieve their loved ones of the suffering that they are feeling. So they think they are doing people a service, when in fact they are devastating them.
Dr. Kate: Yeah. Well, let’s talk about shame a little bit more cause you mentioned shame and that seems to be a topic that a lot of people don’t quite understand, especially as it relates to how it impacts mental health, and how it impacts people’s ability to get treatment or willingness to get treatment really.
Lauren: Well, I think working with addiction, shame is huge. First of all, I think shame is one of the underlying emotions that drives addiction.
Lauren: So, it’s also a very intolerable emotion. So, a lot of addicts are so uncomfortable with the feeling of shame that it drives them to seek out their drug of choice or behavior of choice.
Dr. Kate: That becomes a vicious circle, right?
Dr. Kate: I feel so ashamed by my behavior that I’m seeking relief from that, so I go to my drug or I go to my behavior, whatever my addiction is. And then I feel even more ashamed that I’ve gone to the drug or gone to that behavior and so it just continues; rinse and repeat down a rabbit hole of insurmountable shame.
Lauren: Right. At the same time trying to maintain quite frequently a facade that everything is okay. Most people, when they’re in the depths of their addiction, are not openly admitting that they are in addiction.
Lauren: There’s a lot of denial, there’s a lot of hiding. A lot of their behavior or whatever the substance may be is really stigmatized.
Dr. Kate: But how does shame relate to suicidality in your opinion?
Lauren: Well, I think it’s the same issues. I mean it… whether it’s an addiction or a mental health issue, I think people are often afraid to come forward and talk about their flaws, their vulnerability. I think vulnerability can be immensely scary for people.
Dr. Kate: Right. Well intimacy right?
Dr. Kate: Whenever we think about someone being able to see through to our core and recognize what we perceive to be as flaws. Other people really don’t have the same level of investments in our imperfections, but you know, most of us are pretty good at [laugh] a little self-flagellation from time to time. But when somebody is so shame bound, it really prevents them from showing up in their relationships and that means showing up for other people. But also, you know, being able to receive help and ask for it.
Lauren: Right. Or feeling like they deserve it, you know.
Dr. Kate: Yeah. Right. Wow. Well, I wonder about shame and we are going to talk a lot more actually about shame next weekend or next week and how it relates to sex and relationships, and even achievement and professional growth. Cause shame is pretty important and it’s so well understood on the surface, but highly misunderstood emotion, even though all of us feel it from time to time.
Lauren: Yes. Definitely. And I think you know, you brought up intimacy, and I think it’s so interesting that quite frequently people have the fear of being vulnerable and you know, exposing their flaws yet it’s really in our imperfections and our pain that we connect with others and often that’s how we form intimacy.
Dr. Kate: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, what can we do when we have friends who might be suicidal or love the ones who might be suicidal? What would you recommend Lauren?
Lauren: Well, first and foremost, I think it’s really important that everyone is aware of the number for the suicide prevention hotline and that number is 1-800-273-8255. Again that’s 1-800-273-8255.
Dr. Kate: That’s great. Yeah. And if you are someone who is suffering from this level of pain, please reach out and call that number or reach out to a friend or a loved one immediately. But if you are someone who is caring for someone and you recognize that they might be pain, or you see that there is someone who is carrying a big burden and often doesn’t want to be a burden for other people, I would recommend that you check on that person and don’t make a big stink about it. You know, I’m not saying call them up and say “hey, are you suicidal today?”
Dr. Kate: But, call them up and say “hey, what are you doing for lunch next week. Let’s grab coffee or let’s grab a drink.” You know, get someone to commit to a date and time so that they have something to look forward to, and or even another commitment that they just don’t want to break.
Lauren: Right. And so they don’t feel insignificant and forgotten about.
Lauren: You know, which plays into the idea that other people would be relieved if they were gone.
Dr. Kate: Good. So, we’re going to take a break in about a second, but I just want to take one more point and just remember that even though suicide can be scary to talk about, talking about it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen.
Dr. Kate: And so I really want to press upon that you know. Be empathic, listen with an open mind and an open heart, don’t rush to conclusions, cause most of the time just speaking our pain is enough to let a little bit of steam out of the pot.
Dr. Kate: So, we are going to take a quick break, but when we come back, more about sex, money, and power with Debra Kaplan, author of For Love and Money: Exploring Sexual and Financial Betrayal in Relationships.
Dr. Kate: Welcome back, you are listening to behind closed doors. I’m Dr. Kate and my co-host is Lauren Dummit. And we’re talking about sex, money and power today with esteemed author and a personal role model of mine: Debra Kaplan. She wrote the book For Love and Money: Exploring Sexual and Financial Betrayal in Relationships. Debra thank you so much for joining us today.
Debra: Oh! You’re so welcome. Dr. Kate, Lauren it’s a pleasure and an honor to speak with you both today. I’m excited.
Lauren: Well, it’s an honor for us as well. I’ve… definitely you have been one of my favorite presenters I’ve ever listened to. So, I was wondering if you could share with us a little bit about your background and what interested you in sex, money and power.
Debra: Well, my background began on Wall Street. I spent many years on Wall Street and while I was there, I worked in both the commodity option pits, I worked in junk bonds and I spent a lot of time also on training desks. Now as you would imagine, it is a male dominated, testosterone driven environment.
Debra: And I really enjoyed those years, I have loved those years and I’m still involved in finance today. So, my past is a businesswoman and there is a much longer story that I won’t deliver the audience with about how I’d came to transition to working in the field of psychotherapy actually occurred on a trading floor one day when… and it became very apparent to me that emotions drive the market. And I knew at some point in the future that I would transition and segue into the world of psychology. But the world came together when I started seeing in my practice the issues of money and sex and power play out in particular with couples.
Dr. Kate: Well there’s so much interwoven between those three things right? Sex, money and power. What couple doesn’t navigate that territory?
Lauren: Right. And I think a lot of what you’ve talked about and that is the intensity both on Wall Street and then coupleships that involved: sex, money and power.
Debra: Yeah. There was a lot of intensity on Wall Street and I’m in recovery 18 years, so for me, the intensity that I gained today is in a very healthy way and I enjoy stepping into that abyss with couples in the sessions because the intensity that plays out with couples can often be underscored and driven by what is not consciously either a atuned to or being spoken about. So, if I can name that in a room and help build a balance and actually offer a balance and a counterpoint to what is not being understood in the coupleship, then we’ve already changed the dynamics for the positive and for that couple.
Lauren: It’s quite a butterfly effect.
Debra: It’s actually… it’s a very short and direct butterfly effect. It’s an intentional intervention that calling out the elephant in the room and actually exposing what is the tail driving and wagging the dog and couples don’t always recognize that this is happening.
Lauren: I was reading in your book, you were talking about how often couples are having these you know, are involved in these deep complex that they are not even aware that the underlying issues have to do with sex, money and power and that they are focused on the surface issues and really when you
Lauren: Peel away the layers, it comes down to that.
Debra: Yeah. You know, I’ve often said, and as I wrote about in the book, when two people come together, and they often come together under emotional and erotic cosmic trance, and the one conversation that isn’t occurring is “hey what do I value in a relationship? Or “what do I most value about bringing into the relationship and how will I express this to my partner?” And this speaks to the issue of relational currency: what I value and my unspoken or esteemed dynamics that will drive how I relate. But for many couples, it’s really unexplored yet incredibly present.
Debra: They may come together, I may you know, work with a coupleship that have come together because it’s a mutual love, it’s prestige, it could be access to financial security, convenience, eco-status. and absolute love, but the connection may not actually be based on recognizing what the relational currency is that each individual brakes.
Dr. Kate: Relational currency. That’s such an interesting term. I wonder if you can describe that a little bit more for our listeners. It sounds like you’re talking about worthiness.
Debra: Yeah. It’s exactly what it is Dr. Kate. So, this is what I value; my self-worth and what I bring into a relationship. And what I value about myself and well, what I bring into the relationship may or may not be what is valued by my partner. So, to know this in advance… you know, the assumption is that I marry and or get into this relationship; committed relationship and that my partner will love me for who I am, and while that would be hopefully the case, what if it isn’t for who I am but who he or she needs me to be or for what I’m bringing but not necessarily for who I am.
Dr. Kate: Right. Yeah. Well, we certainly see a lot of that here in Los Angeles.
Dr. Kate: People are getting married for reasons of opportunity and reasons other than intimacy and love bonds.
Lauren: That happens everywhere too, right?
Lauren: And not to mention all the childhood trauma that not only gets triggered, but it gets played out on who we choose as our partner.
Debra: Yeah. Very good point. In the childhood trauma, what I’ve often found in my work with couples and individuals is that anger which often is one of the emotions that most people have an allergy to. People really don’t know and are afraid to express anger appropriately.
Debra: I mean, I could say I’m angry that you came home late the other night and I prepared the dinner and you asked me to make a special dinner for us and it was going to be our night together and the kids weren’t here, and yet you showed up late and you didn’t care. I’m angry at that, but I may not be able to say that. I may not be able to show up in the relationship and I might be uncomfortable with feeling or expressing that anger for any number of reasons. One of which is childhood trauma; how was anger expressed, how did my family “do anger” and what did anger look like? So, if that anger, if I can’t express it and I have anger because I feel it, it’s part of our natural human equation and very much present, it’s a protection, it’s showing right… you know, righteous wrong. I’m being wronged and..
Debra: Absolutely necessary. It’s strength. It’s power, self-denied power. But if I don’t know how to own that, and or know how to express it, that becomes passive aggressively played out and very potentially in the context of sex or money.
Dr. Kate: Absolutely. I mean, in your book for love and money, you write about eroticized rage and monetized rage. Can you tell our listeners a l
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